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Old 03-31-2014, 07:31 AM   #1
Lord Tentacle
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Default Log manifolds, Perrently not so crap

As found on the McLaren MP4-12C






8500rpm, 616+hp....
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:41 AM   #2
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Well ****. Let's all dump our tube headers and start using log manifolds now.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:28 AM   #3
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Well ****. Let's all dump our tube headers and start using log manifolds now.
I know Right ! I presume the post from Lord Tentical was meant to be amusing. But wouldn't it be right to assume that the cast log manifold is used to fit the constraints within the engine compartment along with bring down production costs? Granted even if it is on a super car the company producing it needs to make a profit on their production.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:41 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by pyrosanltd View Post
I know Right ! I presume the post from Lord Tentical was meant to be amusing. But wouldn't it be right to assume that the cast log manifold is used to fit the constraints within the engine compartment along with bring down production costs? Granted even if it is on a super car the company producing it needs to make a profit on their production.
The point is that although nice
99.9% of this board will never make more then log turd will support

Also... they had more then enough room to fit even a slightly less log like manifold into place and didn't bother
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:48 AM   #5
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They didn't skimp on the downpipe.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:01 AM   #6
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How psi will log support?

I replaced the log on my 16V with a nice tubular manifold and things got a lot zoomier, but I really couldn't tell you if it was the turbo upgrade that went with it vs. the log manifold.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:03 AM   #7
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We use em on the Vipers and they work great.



Those have made around 1900 RWHP before.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:06 AM   #8
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A v8 with 616hp? My turd 8v made exactly half that (at the wheels, at least) with the log manifold.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:13 AM   #9
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That looks like a TLAO down pipe. Has he been doing some secret work for Mclaren?
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Lord Tentacle View Post
The point is that although nice
99.9% of this board will never make more then log turd will support

Also... they had more then enough room to fit even a slightly less log like manifold into place and didn't bother
OK I can understand the statement above. But at the same time as we all know the red block is not the most efficient engine to build up, most of us do it for the challenge and or for fun. But if you can afford to build out a tuned header why not do it ? There are considerations while building out the header, such as its purpose and which turbine you are using. After all its all about how well we can support the modifications to the engine with maximum efficiency. Yes for some one whom is trying to +T and cannot get their hands on a 90+ manifold it would be better to just make a log header for cheap fix (if they have the tools to do it). As for the rest of us whom are working toward other goals then everything counts. The best way to look at this is, that engine was designed for a specific purpose. All of the components where selected and designed to meet the needs of that purpose. The same considerations should be well thought out while we are modifying and building our Turds
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:22 AM   #11
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That looks like a TLAO down pipe. Has he been doing some secret work for Mclaren?
I'm sure their R&D department read through Kyote's coilover article to help them develop suspension...I wouldn't be surprised if TLAO also chipped the ECU.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:27 AM   #12
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Under boost pulse supercharging doesn't exist since the chamber pressure and pistons are forcing out the gas, there isn't any scavenge effect. A tubular exhaust manifold won't last as long as a cast inconel or additive manufacturing (3D printed) exhaust manifold as is now common with the race teams. They can 3D print a titanium exhaust manifold that will flow better and be more durable than a tubular stainless header.

I've seen tubular headers seriously warp and collectors balloon just from 1/4 mile passes. A McLaren is going to undergo a lot more heat stress getting up to top speed than the 7-10 seconds it takes to make a 1/4 mile pass!
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:35 AM   #13
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Under boost pulse supercharging doesn't exist since the chamber pressure and pistons are forcing out the gas, there isn't any scavenge effect. A tubular exhaust manifold won't last as long as a cast inconel or additive manufacturing (3D printed) exhaust manifold as is now common with the race teams. They can 3D print a titanium exhaust manifold that will flow better and be more durable than a tubular stainless header.

I've seen tubular headers seriously warp and collectors balloon just from 1/4 mile passes. A McLaren is going to undergo a lot more heat stress getting up to top speed than the 7-10 seconds it takes to make a 1/4 mile pass!
Agreed

We have moved to exclusively cast manifolds for longevity, reliability, and sealing at interfaces. It also allows us to fit in tighter places. For anything street, I am a strong proponent of good, cast manifolds.


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Old 03-31-2014, 10:12 AM   #14
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It's magic, inside that log is 9" of tuned length manifold. Just shows when designing a complete system, not every single element of it has to be optimized. I'm sure many hours of R&D are in that log too
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:40 AM   #15
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It's magic, inside that log is 9" of tuned length manifold. Just shows when designing a complete system, not every single element of it has to be optimized. I'm sure many hours of R&D are in that log too
Another consideration for them is Cat lightoff. Headers don't perform as well on this.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:10 AM   #16
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I'm sure their R&D department read through Kyote's coilover article to help them develop suspension...I wouldn't be surprised if TLAO also chipped the ECU.
And lada is looking into Travis minchew's idea of welding different coilovers to their hubs.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:55 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by pyrosanltd View Post
I know Right ! I presume the post from Lord Tentical was meant to be amusing. But wouldn't it be right to assume that the cast log manifold is used to fit the constraints within the engine compartment along with bring down production costs? Granted even if it is on a super car the company producing it needs to make a profit on their production.
yeah production costs on a mp4-12c
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:13 PM   #18
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yeah production costs on a mp4-12c
Every production car has a BOM cost and the lower you can make it the more $$$$$ you get into your bank account.

Cast manifold = $50 each X 3000 units = $150000
Tube manifold = $150 each X 3000 units = $450000

Thats a saving of $300K a year going into your bank.

These numbers are just guesses but you get the idea.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
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yeah production costs on a mp4-12c
Of course they consider production costs. If they didn't they would just be another Vector, gumpert, etc etc.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:20 PM   #20
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Im sure the reason for using those manis inst production cost but as mentioned above reliability
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:21 PM   #21
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Im sure the reason for using those manis inst production cost but as mentioned above reliability
It's still a consideration. Maybe also the performance vs. cost benefits.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:25 PM   #22
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I'm sure they're very clever, I wonder why the o.p. looks off center, maybe the internal passages are different sizes to keep velocities the same etc.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by CAPT_BLOTTO View Post
It's still a consideration. Maybe also the performance vs. cost benefits.

we are all just shooting crap here about this. Without talking to the engineering and development departments at McL we all have no idea.

insert p1 engine (top of the line engine)

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Old 03-31-2014, 03:34 PM   #24
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If they can hit the targets they wanted with a cast log manifold why go to the expense of a tubular one? Also this engine will have to pass 500 hour durability which a tubular one may struggle to do.
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Old 03-31-2014, 03:46 PM   #25
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Another consideration for them is Cat lightoff. Headers don't perform as well on this.
Cold (cast iron) manifolds suck up more heat than cold headers. That's why the heat shrouds for EFE are so much larger on manifolds. For the same reason, cat lightoff is faster on a thin header the same length as a cast manifold. Only when you move the cat twice as far from the engine does it become an issue.
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