home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-28-2011, 04:09 PM   #1
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default 9 series strut mounts redrilling for -1* camber

or thereabouts. Many an old thread here about "the camber mod", etc. etc. Well I've got the front suspension out of the "cheap thrills" 944, and want this increased camber before wrapping up the front end.

Here are the stocker mounts as found:

[IMG][/IMG]

Knocked out the front studs, rotated each side inboard until contact reached with strut towers (rear stud/nut "just snug):

[IMG][/IMG]

I marked with sharpie the location of the relocated front stud for this max. negative camber location (without trimming the ID of the strut housing, which I prefer to leave stock):

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

My scale says they both will take a maximum of 24~25mm. I know several old threads claimed around 22mm. Sound about right? Car has not been hit in the front end, completely stock 92 944. Last, found a couple posts from Janspeed (Euro guy) who moved both studs in parallel around 14~16mm, and also trimmed strut tower. Anyone ever measure for both to see if the dual stud offset gave more - camber? I was not planning to fit check with the IPD sport springs, as the OD is smaller than the strut housing, so I can't (yet) imagine how the springs will rub if the upper housing fits. I understand the IPD lowered height will benefit the - camber just a bit as well. Whatdayathink?
__________________
Project "cheap thrills" build thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...67#post4211467

Feedback thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=198746
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2011, 04:28 PM   #2
Wilford Brimley
LOCAL ONLY
 
Wilford Brimley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lake stevens, wa
Default

I just did this, a lil more ghetto but it worked looks good




Left side before



After



Right side





Neg camber

__________________
96 Grand cherokee, 5.2l badass wheeler

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeedomtoFreedom View Post
I've got a real issue with you Wilford
Wilford Brimley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2011, 04:45 PM   #3
tritoch
Board Member
 
tritoch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: IL
Default

Love the pictorials. Not sure if the old threads are in articles or not (search for 'camber' came up negative [edit: omg I'm sorry]), but this seems worthy, maybe with a bit more write-up (in case the pics went down?)

Why were there 2 marks on the driver side? Looks like the inner one is an 'oops'?
tritoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2011, 05:03 PM   #4
peehound
"Arf" she said.
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Default

I just rotated the struts an drilled 'em; didn't pull 'em out, or measure, or anything.
__________________
Nothing exceeds like excess.
peehound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2011, 05:20 PM   #5
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch View Post
Why were there 2 marks on the driver side? Looks like the inner one is an 'oops'?
The factory strut towers are slotted fore & aft.....I marked both possible front stud locations, one with the strut plate slid aft (more + caster) and one with strut plate slid forward (more negative camber). For some reason, there was a difference in the transferred holes, between the pass. & driver sides....it's tough to mark it and look up the strut tower (for interference) simultaneously! At any rate, I'm after - camber to provide "grip" and reduce the miserable tire wear issues with this front suspension.

Any lost caster, of course recovered with "the caster mod"

No one tried the "Euro camber mod", both studs offset in parallel?
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2011, 06:07 PM   #6
Devsbeater
Board Member
 
Devsbeater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kelowna BC, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peehound View Post
I just rotated the struts an drilled 'em; didn't pull 'em out, or measure, or anything.
I did this too, took like 10 mins including jacking up each side separately. used the same body hole and just drilled the tophat, so a tower brace would still be useable.
__________________
F350 OBS PSD CCLB
Legacy Touring Wagon 2.2 Turbo
244 lsx swap
245 Turbo Budget Drifter, backroad tourer.
Devsbeater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2011, 11:40 PM   #7
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devsbeater View Post
I did this too, took like 10 mins including jacking up each side separately. used the same body hole and just drilled the tophat, so a tower brace would still be useable.
5 minutes anybody? Somebody?

OK, fit checking again tonight to make sure the strut mount wasn't "riding up the radius" with 24~25mm offset. Snugged the rear nuts, slid the strut mounts inboard with care that they stayed in flat contact with the strut tower surface, then scribed them both; now it appears that 23mm is closer to the max. offset. (I think Billy from Knox Motorsports said he moved his 22mm). Will drill & press the original studs back in at a buddy's machine shop tomorrow to retain the press-in feature for top side removal.

For grins, I did knock both studs out of the drivers side, and fit checked the "Euro dual offset". Without grinding the strut tower ID hole, it seems you can barely offset BOTH holes around 10mm, or one stud diameter. I don't want holes adjacent to holes, so I'll use the front offset at 23mm. Reinstall the camber offset strut mounts, new SKF bearings, then the IPD sport springs, and last struts fitted with Bils HD's. I'll snap a couple pics looking "from the strut" to show the mounts maxed against the inboard tower for TurboBricks posterity.

Last edited by DET17; 02-28-2011 at 11:45 PM..
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 08:43 AM   #8
ryank
Board Member
 
ryank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bethel, CT
Default

I see the reference to 10mm offset and 23mm offset based on either moving both holes parallel, or rotating just the front hole. Are there any other pluses or minuses to the two different methods?
__________________

'94 945T | '70 Alfa GTV 1750 | Ducati M800S | feedback
ryank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 08:53 AM   #9
MadDog_945
Våga Vägra 8V
 
MadDog_945's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lower Saxony
Default

Moving just the Frontbolt is an official Volvo announced Method to get rid of excesssice tyre wear..







Volvo specialtool 5083




From the greenbooks..


They say moving the hole 3mm(0,3cm) into the longhole should be 0,25°...
MadDog_945 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 09:26 AM   #10
Roy 940
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Under the hood...
Default

True, I move my bolts 9.00mm and I have now -0.75 deg camber...
__________________
project Blue is Better

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=247082
Roy 940 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 10:19 AM   #11
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy 940 View Post
True, I move my bolts 9.00mm and I have now -0.75 deg camber...
Roy, I'm presuming you moved both bolts EACH 9mm, correct? Alles klar?
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 10:28 AM   #12
MadDog_945
Våga Vägra 8V
 
MadDog_945's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lower Saxony
Default

both bolts means both front left and right bolts in this case.. i think/hope ;)
MadDog_945 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 10:42 AM   #13
kendogg
V8 Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Why not use a camber bolt at the bottom of the strut instead of all this redrilling?
kendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 01:14 PM   #14
Roy 940
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Under the hood...
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Roy, I'm presuming you moved both bolts EACH 9mm, correct? Alles klar?
Yes, correct! And it's a huge improvment about tires wear and front end grip! One of the first and best mods to do!
Roy 940 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 02:46 PM   #15
Devsbeater
Board Member
 
Devsbeater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kelowna BC, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kendogg View Post
Why not use a camber bolt at the bottom of the strut instead of all this redrilling?
no can do on these cars.

This mod should only take like 10 mins if your not being anal, which I definatly wasnt, an no offense to those who are.
Devsbeater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 02:58 PM   #16
krad
Board Member
 
krad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Poland, Kraków
Default

I found similar description for 960 (with some specs) here (http://www.k-jet.org/files/greenbook...nt-qx14846.pdf)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDog_945 View Post
Moving just the Frontbolt is an official Volvo announced Method to get rid of excesssice tyre wear..







Volvo specialtool 5083




From the greenbooks..


They say moving the hole 3mm(0,3cm) into the longhole should be 0,25°...

Last edited by krad; 03-01-2011 at 03:08 PM..
krad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2011, 03:23 PM   #17
JE Jr
Board Member
 
JE Jr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sweden
Default

Thanks for the info! Makes me feel good that also Volvo recommends this.
__________________

White car: --744 GLE ´88-- Polishing object
Black car: --S80 V8 ´07-- Daily driver
www.garaget.org/JE_Jr
JE Jr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2011, 02:33 PM   #18
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

OK, I've got the "top hats" or top strut mounts modified with the forward studs moved 23mm. Great pains were taken to assure symmetry between them; install validated as they fit perfect in the tower slots with same amount of fore/aft motion for caster adjustment:

[IMG][/IMG]

With them installed, here are a couple shots of the drivers side (LH side) showing that the modified mounts are now in contact with the strut tower at ~ the 10 o'clock position:

[IMG][/IMG]

and also:

[IMG][/IMG]

Last, a couple view "from the strut" to show that the upper mounts are at the limit of inboard movement, without metal removal. Drivers side (LH side):

[IMG][/IMG]

and the pass side (RH side):

[IMG][/IMG]

Notice the new INA strut bearings....I don't want to go back in here anytime soon. BILS HD right behind....... Last, for the record, a 10.5mm hole was drilled before pressing the OE studs back into position (place a socket on the opposite side so you minimize deformation - the metal is pretty soft).
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2011, 02:51 PM   #19
MadDog_945
Våga Vägra 8V
 
MadDog_945's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lower Saxony
Default

aaaah this is nice documented !

23mm? isnt that a bit hard?
MadDog_945 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2011, 04:28 PM   #20
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDog_945 View Post
aaaah this is nice documented !

23mm? isnt that a bit hard?
Ist keine probleme! From others who have made this modification, they report around -1* of camber, which is not excessive and helps to even out the tire wear, and makes improved grip of the front end.

I won't have alignment data for several months, but will post in this thread for the TB brothers & sisters. Can I get an AMEN?
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 07:31 AM   #21
MadDog_945
Våga Vägra 8V
 
MadDog_945's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lower Saxony
Default

AMON Bruder :D
MadDog_945 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 10:09 AM   #22
Natural244
F1 Junkie!
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC
Default

Quick question about this process:

You only have to move the front stud toward the inside (toward the engine bay), correct? Seems that this would affect the toe more than the camber, I would think you would want to move both the front and rear stud mounts in parallel?

Tim
Natural244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 12:42 PM   #23
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Of course, toe must be readjusted. From my experience, that is step 3, after you set camber (1st) then caster (2nd). This modification does not permit much camber change, as the slots in the strut towers are fore & aft.....i.e. caster.
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 02:41 PM   #24
jerryc
Board Member
 
jerryc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SF Bay area
Default

There was another thread on this recently; that one referred to another older one in which Janspeed did a nice writeup on moving both bolts. I don't have the links handy.
It seems to me that the difference between the two is that, in the two bolt method the maximum that the tophat can be moved Without grinding the hole in the top of the tower, is approx 10mm, and that moves the centerline of the strut assy also 10mm.
The one bolt method as above here moves the front bolt only, up to 23mm, and pivots off the stationary rear bolt. So how much the centerline moves (which would be the actual determinant of camber change) has not been measured AFAIK, but could be calculated if one was more up on geometry than I am currently. My guess though is that it's in the 8-11mm range. Still worthwhile.

From above diagrams
They say moving the hole 3mm(0,3cm) into the longhole should be 0,25°
From this, then it could be plotted what amount of movement will provide what optimal camber change. More neg camber will reduce outside edge tire wear, and increase tire bite in turns, but how much will increase inside edge wear...? And a factor for these figures would be use of car; DD, rally, etc.

Some time ago I read where some make a slot in the front hole of the tower instead of drilling new holes, so they could slide the strut assy similar to the 240's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural244 View Post
Quick question about this process:
You only have to move the front stud toward the inside (toward the engine bay), correct? Seems that this would affect the toe more than the camber, I would think you would want to move both the front and rear stud mounts in parallel?
Tim
Moving the top of the strut assy will mostly affect camber, side to side. If fore/aft, caster. Toe would be affected only slightly if at all, and as Det17 said would be checked/adjusted last.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursan View Post
What's the female equivalent to a dick pic? twat shot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxJenoxX View Post
There isn't one because dudes aren't grossed out by unsolicited vaginas.

Last edited by jerryc; 03-04-2011 at 05:23 AM.. Reason: screwed up; fixed it.
jerryc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #25
peehound
"Arf" she said.
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Of course, toe must be readjusted. From my experience, that is step 3, after you set camber (1st) then caster (2nd). This modification does not permit much camber change, as the slots in the strut towers are fore & aft.....i.e. caster.
I've found ~1/16"/1.5mm toe OUT is optimum after this modification.
Use washers on the strut rod for caster.
peehound is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:08 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.