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2 oil squirters per cylinder B230FT

dontknowyou

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Hello,
Hope you guys had a good thanksgiving. Was looking at the squirter kit rental thread and an idea came to mind. Thoughts on adding a second oil squirter?

First and foremost; has it been tried?
There is room for two per cylinder.
Would the oil pump handle the pressure drop?
I am sure the extra cooling would not be a bad thing.
Perhaps one could be aimed at the bottom of the piston and the other at the cylinder wall for lubrication.

Curious what you guys think. Might just try it for lolz.
 

mikep

The MP
Joined
May 24, 2003
Location
38? 27' N 75? 29' W
No clue about oil supply, but if you went with a high volume pump I would guess it would be ok.
It will possibly add more windage spray (compared to the total spray from the sides of 4 rods (8 sides a-flinging) and the mains (8? sides a-dropping) and the aux shaft (4 sides) , but if you are boosting the snot out of it, more oil below the dish would be a good thing.
 

OVERDRIVE

Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Location
Brooklyn, Neu York
Do a head gasket delete then you can get upper piston cooling along with the under piston cooling. But jokes aside I don't think there would be any improvement. If lower combustion chamber temps are important to you, I've had this idea kicking around the back of my head of using the cold start 5th injector to inject a water/meth mixture once a certain manifold pressure is reached. IPD made kits for P80 cars back in the day that just used the windshield washer reservoir to also feed for water injection.
 

mikep

The MP
Joined
May 24, 2003
Location
38? 27' N 75? 29' W
AN -2 squirter mod.

I was just telling someone about using cold start injectors and washer pumps (in NA cars) and such.
I agree on the ?not much difference? sentiment, for dual squirters and also water injection. I did hear a difference on a big block once, supposedly: we were going a buck-thirty and it suddenly pinged hard, blew a head gasket, base explosions. The owner (an engine builder) blamed it on running out of water/methanol.
 

culberro

Ronald Culberbone III
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Location
Redmond, OR
There have been two really good HPA podcast recently that talk about engine design and racing, they have engine designers from both Redbull F1 and Ilmor engines. They cover oil jets and how they use them to control piston temps so they can run at extremely high combustion temps and continuous detonation. They are using 4-8 jets per piston iirc.

Is that applicable to most redblocks? No.
I could see 2+ jets being useful in an endurance racing engine though.
 

dontknowyou

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
There have been two really good HPA podcast recently that talk about engine design and racing, they have engine designers from both Redbull F1 and Ilmor engines. They cover oil jets and how they use them to control piston temps so they can run at extremely high combustion temps and continuous detonation. They are using 4-8 jets per piston iirc.

Is that applicable to most redblocks? No.
I could see 2+ jets being useful in an endurance racing engine though.

Very cool. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. Never would have imaged 8 jets on 1 cylinder.
 

dontknowyou

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
AN -2 squirter mod.

I was just telling someone about using cold start injectors and washer pumps (in NA cars) and such.
I agree on the ?not much difference? sentiment, for dual squirters and also water injection. I did hear a difference on a big block once, supposedly: we were going a buck-thirty and it suddenly pinged hard, blew a head gasket, base explosions. The owner (an engine builder) blamed it on running out of water/methanol.

AN -2 squirter mod? Is this a joke or a thing? I searched for it and couldn't find anything.
 

mikep

The MP
Joined
May 24, 2003
Location
38? 27' N 75? 29' W
Yeah, for 1/8?, sure. It was a joke. For 8 squirters? No. Look at how much is pumping past all those bearings as i explained, then compare to those tiny squirters.
 

RoadRacer4Life

Owner: DeathWagon
300+ Club
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Location
Montgomery Alabama
The drawbacks in my opinion would exceed any cooling increase. Lower oil pressure or available oil volume, increased windage to the rotating assembly would be much greater concerns to me. I hate to be that guy but if this was a good idea I think we would see it in modern engine that already run much higher temps than our old tractor engine redblocks. But by all means if your willing to put in the work and can provide evidence of its improvement I'm all ears.

-Sam
 

culberro

Ronald Culberbone III
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Location
Redmond, OR
T I hate to be that guy but if this was a good idea I think we would see it in modern engine that already run much higher temps than our old tractor engine redblocks. But by all means if your willing to put in the work and can provide evidence of its improvement I'm all ears.

-Sam

See my earlier post, F1 engines are doing it. They are able to get thermal efficiencies of over 50% when racing and ~6.5 mpg.... Which is nuts.

Lean burn, high SCR, and around 50psi of boost make it a necessity to control piston and ring temps.

Is this applicable to turbo-tractor engines... probably not. I have seen some issues on the rally car that look like they are caused by the rings getting too hot (gapped at 0.028" on the top ring) due to high EGTs (small 0.48 turbine housing and getting BEAT). Adding a second squirter might have helped with this :e-shrug:
 

linuxman51

Railspeeder Enthusiast #1
300+ Club
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Location
mont, AL
See my earlier post, F1 engines are doing it. They are able to get thermal efficiencies of over 50% when racing and ~6.5 mpg.... Which is nuts.

Lean burn, high SCR, and around 50psi of boost make it a necessity to control piston and ring temps.

Is this applicable to turbo-tractor engines... probably not. I have seen some issues on the rally car that look like they are caused by the rings getting too hot (gapped at 0.028" on the top ring) due to high EGTs (small 0.48 turbine housing and getting BEAT). Adding a second squirter might have helped with this :e-shrug:

he's not talking about a one-off corner case application, he's talking about mass production. because no one here is building a f1 clone (And asking questions about it on this forum at least)
 

culberro

Ronald Culberbone III
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Location
Redmond, OR
he's not talking about a one-off corner case application, he's talking about mass production. because no one here is building a f1 clone (And asking questions about it on this forum at least)

What, is this forum not "F1 Bricks"???

In all seriousness, the use case for more piston oil squirting (beyond OEM) is very very low in the redblock world. Having the resources to back up any claim that it actually helps is even less so.

Would it hurt the oil supply... my guess is no (especially if using squirters with a pressure relief). The hot oil pressure on a redblock doesn't climb much over what... 2500rpm? That tells you that the pump is in bypass and wasting energy on over pumping oil. Using that extra oil supply for something even possibly beneficial could be a benefit.
 

VB242

I.M. Weasel
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Driving the No Malarkey Bus
What, is this forum not "F1 Bricks"???

In all seriousness, the use case for more piston oil squirting (beyond OEM) is very very low in the redblock world. Having the resources to back up any claim that it actually helps is even less so.

Would it hurt the oil supply... my guess is no (especially if using squirters with a pressure relief). The hot oil pressure on a redblock doesn't climb much over what... 2500rpm? That tells you that the pump is in bypass and wasting energy on over pumping oil. Using that extra oil supply for something even possibly beneficial could be a benefit.
I installed a crank scraper to keep windage loss down, I'm not going to shoot even more oil into the air,
 
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