Early B230 Piston Knurling / Ceramic coatings

[Kjets On a Plane]

Got this hooptie '87 B230F in the beater wagon.
Very minimal oil use & leak down/no oil anywhere outside or volume of blowby coming out the oil separator box it w/strong compression w/thin headgasket & T-cam, but it's got the inevitable piston slap setup 2-run conservatively on 85-87 octane inconsistent OR & CA (so called) 'gasoline.'
No pitting noted atop pistons from severe pinging, spark plugs look a healthy tan on all 4 whardly any bore wear w/bore gauge measured in many places, otherwise.

Like an idiot/Moe-Ron/Jimbo-Elroy(ale), soaked the pistons in some ATF for several days w/cardboard over the top of the engine held on by a couple bolts to keep dust/debris out to free up the rings/their oil passages when the head came off.

Don't think the slap got *noticeably* louder & the compression got better, blowby was reduced & oil consumption went down (not that it was much before...one of those rare low mileage diligently serviced/highway driven/quality oil used/changed on time 240s you pull in the shop that's totally dry underneath / no blowby fountain huffing out the oil separator box & goop around the lifter buckets in the head or flame trap w/a head-cold, I guess? )
What could've been done differently to 'do no harm?' as a 'master backyard mechanic' lol: @ that) to as close to factory clean-room standards/repair practices/engine assembly & turn-key installation as possible w/what was at hand for tools/knowledge etc?

Carefully ridge ream it, tap the pistons out the top, blow around the ring oil passages with the hoffman-newyorker steam buzzing needle-jet/wand, but don't disturb the super hardened accumulated carbon on the sides of the pistons below the rings that holds the pistons tight to the shape of the bores w/minimal rocking on a crappy B230?

It's got the updated mopar ignition that doesn't seem to be uh...'#triggered' by the slap, but have concerns/it bothersome?
MPG is 'fine' (as expected, anyway; 27-29 in the flat @~55-65 @near sea level unloaded/nothing crazy heavy, nothing on the roof, not towing, 60 degrees, 60% humidity, smooth roads, A/C off, fan clutch working as it should//unlocking & progressively locking/freewheeling on the highway, OE sized tires, air guides in place etc, LH2.2 by all accounts doing its thing, valve clearances in spec (set a tad loose for MPG, longevity & emissions)) on the highway, warm up time reasonable, runs 'quietly enough' once hot/warm it up cautiously properly & gently & light cruise/decel down a hill &/or w/ external heat.

For maximum cheapskate skin flint long-haul em-pee-gees (MPGs) & the engine being 'correct' & original to the car (by all evidence/accounts/low mileage car of 'known' history), kind of *like* the '85-'87 skinny rod B230F & its attributes in this particular case;
Smaller main bearings, less friction/oil shear, skinny light(er) 9mm rods, it's auto-tragic so 180? hooptie center thrust bearing doesn't (shouldn't?) matter, anyway?

Obviously, best/better would be if the factory had a time masheen & could in a factory clean-room assemble w/'86-'88 w/tightest factory tolerances/quality control (from what I've torn down on '69-'95 redblock Volvos) recombine to give me what I want; later tall-gear oil pump & squirters, but '87 skinny rod low friction B230F for an '87 245 automatic workhorse/shop loaner car @ no extra charge that's still emissions compliant, lasts & returns optimal redblock 4-cylinder non-interferience low-fuss operation on dubious 'quality' gas.

Failing that, has anyone found a way to remove the pistons without reclocking the rings or disturbing their relationship to the pistons & bores or stretching/fatiguing them a bunch w/a ring spreader, clean the oil passages/around the rings & knurling &/or applying a swain-tech ceramic coating to the pistons & hand polishing that to the (used) bores optimally?
Install the later model 'tall' gear oil pump & some squirters & go go go?

Don't care about revving it over T-cam RPMs, just don't want to buy any new parts, or disturb factory fit/assembly/do no harm, but remedy the slap/rockin'-schlockin' pistons in the POS defective early B230 that they finally got around to installing a better oil pump/seals/squirters in (tho tooling was more worn out by then, engine metallurgy & e-fan turbo cars run hard in hot climates are fairly hopeless those years/less than optimal now 30+ years later of the redblock 4-banger).

Don't necessarily want to install a '93+ super low mile minty B230F as I actually *do not* want the 13mm rods, larger mains &/or sub-optimal fan clutches/cooling systems of the later donor cars or tooling/metal of the later engine & the '87 motor works 'fine,' it's just noisy cold (& to a degree, if you listen very carefully, hot, as well).

Hipermiling for the long haul rubber-tramping signing off...
*sigh* factory quality control 'questionable' piston steer 180? thrust short gear early oil pumps bean counter B230s

 

[dl242gt]

If I recall correctly there is a bit about knurling pistons with the Stealthfti photo gallery. https://pbase.com/stealthfti/root There is a ton of info there. Knurling the pistons would be a good process. Can't see why it wouldn't help quiet those slap happy early b230.

 

[Kjets On a Plane]

^Read/viewed that & asked a lot of questions, but he's ded now (RIP ) & tho it shows the process of knurling the pistons, specifically, detail of & showing the work/process specifically of the steps taken from knurled to (hand polished to the specific used engine bores? that he glaze-broke honed by hand w/hand held hone & new rings okie-style (grapes of wrath?)??? ) to turn key or quantifying the blow-by or noise (or lackthereof) after it was up & running is/was...a bit lacking &/or difficult to determine over e-mail/long distance or Pbase etc...

Don't wanna bother his living relatives or friends with tedious questions...

 

[culberro]

Don't knurl the pistons. It's not going to gold up for all that long. Maybe if it had squirters and you ran 50w oil it would be ok.

For piston slap cure on the cheap: liqui moly leichtlauf oil. Or add in a can of the L-M MOS2 https://products.liqui-moly.us/mos2-anti-friction-engine-treatment.html

For coating pistons I'd use Line 2 Line Coatings (~$200 to coat the 4 pistons): https://www.line2linecoatings.com/

 

[Kjets On a Plane]

Don't knurl the pistons. It's not going to gold up for all that long. Maybe if it had squirters and you ran 50w oil it would be ok.

For piston slap cure on the cheap: liqui moly leichtlauf oil. Or add in a can of the L-M MOS2 https://products.liqui-moly.us/mos2-anti-friction-engine-treatment.html

For coating pistons I'd use Line 2 Line Coatings (~$200 to coat the 4 pistons): https://www.line2linecoatings.com/

Thx. Ya, no gear/snake oil plz (if possible/avoidable)

$200 seems surprisingly 'affordable' on its face if too lazy/stubborn to remove the short block from the chassis like an okie backyard mechanic & 'properly' hone/rebuild the thing.
Swain-tech wasn't that forthcoming on info/specifics when asked pointed questions for final shaping &/or polishing (since pistons aren't exactly 'round' after-all).
Interpreted their answer as ' (appropriately) diplomatic' as in 'we don't wanna promise anything to someone with (possibly) unreasonable expectations or who doesn't know what the hell they are doing/might blame us &/or trying to do something infeasible/hair-brained/off the beaten path '
((more than) 'fair enough' / 'if you have to ask...')

Just wish 'do no harm' & leave the engine in the car/make the slap go away, but want it to run no worse than it does currently?
But there's always risk tearing into it that far/bottom end voodoo disturbing factory assembly in less that factory conditions 30+ years later, right?

What's the procedure?
Ridge ream it, observe how the rings are clocked w/great care, tap the pistons out cautiously, remove the rods, keep everything in order w/great care, stamp the piston # up underneath it such that the marking won't get blasted/worn away, get them sqeaky clean carefully (ultrasonic in some heated simple green/similar & steam jet?), send out for coating, re-assemble w/ great care?

How risky is spreading & reinstalling used rings or changing the 'tippyness' of the piston on an old used-arse engine?
Total fool's errand?
More time than money/brains & incorrigibly stubborn?

 

[culberro]

Thx. Ya, no gear/snake oil plz (if possible/avoidable)


$200 isn't bad. Swain-tech wasn't that forthcoming on info for final shaping &/or polishing (since pistons aren't exactly 'round' after-all).

I interpreted their answer as 'diplomatic' as in 'we don't wanna promise anything to someone without reasonable expectations or who doesn't know what the hell they are doing/might blame us' ((more than) 'fair enough' / 'if you have to ask...')

The liqui-moly oil or the additive isn't a snake oil by any means. The oil just has some nice properties that really help reduce the piston slap in redblocks. The additive is just a concentrated version of what they have in the oil.

Do an oil change and spend the $35 on the LM Leichtlauf, you'll probably be surprised. I would just change the oil in the DD 240 when I could hear the pistons rattling around again, which was about once or twice per year.

The L2L coatings are really good stuff. You sometimes have to scotchbrite the skirts a bit so the pistons can easily-ish move in the bores. Then once broken in it's allllll groovy.

 

[Kjets On a Plane]

^Will *try* to read up.
Just try to change the oil, but oil physics, engineering & chemistry is so far over my head that I just try to 'do no harm' & change it with something quality/appropriate *at all*.
I'm with you on the 'change it if its making more noise, at the factory interval, or if it looks/smells a little gross or doesn't feel slippery between your fingers with strong film' if that makes sense /if I'm understanding you right?

Less ZDDP in oils for heavy metal poisoning of the air/environment (broadly), finely sensitive WB 02 sensors & kitty cats these days among other things...
...not that you can't buy the stuff 'for off road use only.'

'Try the easy stuff first.'

~150-170K.
She ain't museum pretty, but she's been a good car for me/others for the last ~decade or two & never been wrecked, either?

What do you think of coryswindle's coated '0 clearance' coated oil pump gears/housing?

I like his pipe contraption/thing with the 3 O-rings w/brace, but I hate to say it/think it (this isn't intended as a personal attack or to diminish his efforts to actually make/build that very pretty pipe), but the way the oil pump is mounted on a pivot line w/the 2 bolts there & cast thin alloy housing I sorta ASS-U-ME that it needs some vibration damping from the factory 'square-edged' seals to allow operation in various changing temps w/out risking cracking / shattering the oil pump from vibration or different pumping demands/resonances w/both thick & thin oil & the factory chose those stupid seals/pipe fitted to each pump for a reason?
But I don't know much/bear of very little brain?

Maybe I got that all wrong, but sometimes there's just no easy way to make the redblock tractor something it isn't / wasn't intended to be easily?

 

[culberro]

On the oil change interval, I'd push past factory since it was a high quality oil in the non-leaking b230f. Never a working odo, so I just used the noise, smell, feel test for oil changes. The clickity clack just came back around the time needed for an oil change. It's a nice/easy reminder.

Coated pumps are a very good idea if you want to drastically improve their efficiency and performance. A few thousandths of an inch can really change the performance of some systems. I just use the factory setup and I've never have an issue tbh.

 

[Kjets On a Plane]

On the oil change interval, I'd push past factory since it was a high quality oil in the non-leaking b230f. Never a working odo, so I just used the noise, smell, feel test for oil changes. The clickity clack just came back around the time needed for an oil change. It's a nice/easy reminder.

Coated pumps are a very good idea if you want to drastically improve their efficiency and performance. A few thousandths of an inch can really change the performance of some systems. I just use the factory setup and I've never have an issue tbh.

Same here.
The decent synth oil & cooler ambient temps & the transfer tube seals seem to be fine for a decade or so at a time between inspections?
I've measured a bunch of used oil pumps, & as you say, with 10-30 & low mile cars, a few thou makes a big difference @ startup cold & lower rpm cruise/wear.
That said, I won't install a repop/new oil pump, either & have sent/returned a few just pulling them outta the box @ the counter/resealed the bag & politely said 'no thanks, sorry to trouble you' after measuring everything & looking at the casting. *sigh*

IDK I've mostly used 5w-40 Chevron-Delo synth 'turbo diesel truck oil' or Shell Rotella-T that's the competitor or Mobil 1 0-30 with some zync anymore?
I have no justification for this or understanding of the science or detailed scientific analysis, it's what's on the shelf I can buy?
Since they've lowered the ZDDP I've started purchasing a zddp additive.

I do also sort of worry about detonation w/chains of hydrocarbons in diesel oils compared to a racing oil, but it doesn't ping audibly/no evidence of it when the head was off, but IDK what I'm really looking at/to look for in detail or have proper measuring/inspection tools?

3K-3750 miles like the 240Turbos seems uh...premature if gently highway driven & running tip-top & warmed up properly?
That said, oil is cheap & engine rebuilds are expensive, but one hates to be wasteful (within reason, it's not worth wearing out an engine trying to save a fraction of a cent on oil changes).
The VW nutcases I know swear by that liquimoly additive for uh...'similarly afflicted' engines to our B230s but as I'll readily admit, it's all waaaay over my head...

The ODO works fine/accurately according to the speedometer/ODO check section on I5
What a PITA '86+ electric speedo cars tho? derp


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What happens to the (non-squirter?) B230s most times, exactly?

Pistons get too hot/are too far up from the crank windage after they've run low on oil/are run around like that or early marginal oil pumps/seals not pumping up to sufficient pressure to let the oil sling off the crank like it did when they were new, thus are noisy w/tippy pistons even if the clearances aren't all that loose to the bores & it doesn't have excessive blowby or anything, by all accounts?

Several theories & all the engines vary on tear down, but most all of them have that in common ~20-30 years later?
The squirter motors there's just always a filtered jet of oil blasting the piston so it never gets too hot or gets roofing tar/gross too thick oil only even its it got 200K on it & some inevitable bearing, oil pump &/or ring land wear/blowby?
Coat the pistons & add late model coated oil pump & squirters, have low mileage low friction skinny rod B230 that works totally 'fine' for the application/needs/expectations?

Tho squirters froth the oil & are more of a problem/challenge for the oil separator box to precipitate the oil droplets out from potentially for higher RPM use w/o a catch can/dry sump scavenger pump or the like?
Squirters/(precisely) directed (variable regulated volume)) jet of filtered/pumped oil thru the rod or w/fixed squirter from the block does seem fairly common, anymore, tho!

 

[Redwood Chair]

FirstWorld Problems

Lol it could always be worse, you could need a 140 145 Fuel Tank.

 

[bobxyz]

Out of curiosity, how does knurling a piston work?
- Do you knurl the whole surface, or just the lower portion?
- Pistons aren't perfectly round - is there a way to knurl uniformly, or do the wide portions get knurled more and the skinny portions get knurled less?
- Do you knurl until reaching a desired diameter, or do you overshoot and then machine back to the desired diameter? (If so, how does this machining work?)

Thx,
Bob

 

[VB242]

As far as squirters go, the 2zz-ge Toyota engine I just rebuilt has them and it revs to 8300rpm. I didn't see anything crazy to control the oil mist, it did have a factory crank scraper/windage tray. It also uses 5w30 not sure if that would make smaller droplets.

 

[culberro]

Out of curiosity, how does knurling a piston work?
- Do you knurl the whole surface, or just the lower portion?
- Pistons aren't perfectly round - is there a way to knurl uniformly, or do the wide portions get knurled more and the skinny portions get knurled less?
- Do you knurl until reaching a desired diameter, or do you overshoot and then machine back to the desired diameter? (If so, how does this machining work?)

Thx,
Bob

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/09/lost-art-knurling-pistons-takes-skill-guts/

https://www.google.com/search?q=pis...biw=1600&bih=841&dpr=1.8#imgrc=QRhpaKTPf_HyTM

 

[Kjets On a Plane]

Knurling, as often done, the knurler is spring/air cushion loaded/follows the profile of the lower part of the piston iirc & something you did in the 1930s-1947 or maybe to your (Massey?) tractor that ran @1200-3500rpm & 30-60hp &150-230ft-lbs or torque, pistons/parts were scarce/costly, engines were ‘rebuilt’ every 30-100k & ran on 50wt Dino oil in summers & polished back a bit after over-shooting very slightly?

Knurling was mostly a provocation.
Coating, &/or squirters or the like probably makes much more sense in modern times or with cars that really get driven?
Just still has good compression & very little blowby, but it’s noisy cold so it doesn’t ‘need’ a rebuild per se?

Will change the oil first..

 

[Redwood Chair]

Pretty sure another pull at the junkyard engine slot machine would be cheaper than a special process at a fancy pants machine shop.

 

[bobxyz]

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/09/lost-art-knurling-pistons-takes-skill-guts/

https://www.google.com/search?q=pis...biw=1600&bih=841&dpr=1.8#imgrc=QRhpaKTPf_HyTM

Thanks, I was trying to envision a normal lathe with some sort of weird eccentric tool holder that would go in and out as the piston turns. Instead, it's a back and forth motion over a limited region on the skirts:

manual piston knurler: https://youtu.be/O-u57YsVvwQ?t=114
automatic: https://youtu.be/4uzZYPIGbZE?t=22

 

[Redwood Chair]

Heck you might even find a nice crank steered flat top B23F in the yards and lose the piston slap at the cost of what 1/10th of an MPGee?

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

Heck you might even find a nice crank steered flat top B23F in the yards and lose the piston slap at the cost of what 1/10th of an MPGee?

No 240s at the local PnP's right now. Have to wait for better weather, when people start throwing out their "lawn art" 240s.

 

[Redwood Chair]

THE End Is Nigh

No 240s at the local PnP's right now. Have to wait for better weather, when people start throwing out their "lawn art" 240s.

What no 240s in the PORTLAND YARDS?

 

[culberro]

Pretty sure another pull at the junkyard engine slot machine would be cheaper than a special process at a fancy pants machine shop.

Coated pistons (APC from Line 2 Line or similar) and a gasket kit is less than an unknown redblock from the yards these days.