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fluid damper ATI for Volvo B230?

9

90volvo

Active member
Joined
May 27, 2017
Location
Eldorado Springs Mo.
I saw on Klracing has the ATI for the 2YZ engine, but nothinig for the ole redbock. Just curious has anyone modified a Ati fluid damper of somthing close to work on the redblock. I rebuilt my engine couple yrs ago and was talked out of having it balanced. Well I wish I had it balanced as I get vibrations at idle and or low Rpm. Anyways thanks.
 
You can still have your damper and flywheel balanced if they are off sometime.
And if you reused the old rods and pistons, a rebuild shouldn’t have introduced a shake.
The pistons depend on the manufacturer.
Mahles are usually close, but onece in a while you’ll get a heavy pin/light piston match. Switch that pin with a light one and you will get a high rpm shake.
 
mikep said:
Low rpm my bet is flywheel/clutch or a bracket/exhaust touching something.
Click to expand...
Its original pistons with aftermarket rods. I did make sure everything was same weight as far as the piston and rods. Im gonna get it up on the rack in a few days and check everything out. Its not real bad but its noticed. I did poly motor mounts once and put orginal ones back in after couple weeks.
 
I don't know much about torsional vibrations but I'm quite sure that vibrations at idle and lower has nothing to do with that. Redblock has same front pulley even though piston and and rod mass has varied a lot. Compare B200 pistons with skinny rods vs. B230 pistons and 13 mm rods, I guess the weight difference might be 50-100 g per hole.
 
I'm using an ATI damper from a Ford Pinto which should have very similar harmonics as a B230. ATI wasn't interested in making anything for us so I made my own. I'll probably do a group buy of some crank pulleys soon but I want to get some more testing in before I do.
 
t8fanning said:
I'm using an ATI damper from a Ford Pinto which should have very similar harmonics as a B230. ATI wasn't interested in making anything for us so I made my own. I'll probably do a group buy of some crank pulleys soon but I want to get some more testing in before I do.
Click to expand...
I worked on some designs very similar to this a few years ago and had a number of discussions about it with Josh at Yoshifab. I also had discussions with Fluidampr (not ATI) and they agreed it was certainly workable with one of their universal dampers. It's been done for other engines where a ready made pulley wasn't available and a shop here in Texas shared some of that with me (they were doing this for Toyota 2JZ motors). My thoughts are that if it was a standard V-belt (not serpentine) it would more likely be successful, unless someone also offered all other pulleys in serpentine (including AC) and brackets for idlers and a tensioner. It's a lot and would be really expensive. But if it was done as a V-belt pulley, not nearly so much. Also I would prefer NOT a smaller underdrive pulley to give the alternator a chance at charging. Yoshifab wasn't interested in getting involved and I decided it was too much to pursue this on my own.

Here are 3D images of what I had come up with using a full-size V-belt and Fluidampr. I'll be happy to share the info I have. If you make it, I'm a buyer.
fluidampr-200002_3lo.jpg
fluidampr-200002_5.jpg
 
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dbarton said:
I worked on some designs very similar to this a few years ago and had a number of discussions about it with Josh at Yoshifab. I also had discussions with Fluidampr (not ATI) and they agreed it was certainly workable with one of their universal dampers. It's been done for other engines where a ready made pulley wasn't available and a shop here in Texas shared some of that with me (they were doing this for Toyota 2JZ motors). My thoughts are that if it was a standard V-belt (not serpentine) it would more likely be successful, unless someone also offered all other pulleys in serpentine (including AC) and brackets for idlers and a tensioner. It's a lot and would be really expensive. But if it was done as a V-belt pulley, not nearly so much. Also I would prefer NOT a smaller pulley to give the alternator a chance at charging. Yoshifab wasn't interested in getting involved and I decided it was too much to pursue this on my own.
Click to expand...
I originally designed mine for the stock size V-belts, but changed it because some fast people from Sweden mentioned that they had trouble with vbelts coming off at high RPM, so I decided to go with a serpentine belt. Additionally, keeping the pulley at the stock size has some issues because it's a lot of material and the ATI damper is pretty heavy so the assembly would end up being heavier than the stock damper.

I designed mine to work with the KL racing serpentine belt kit, and with a smaller alternator pulley than KL supplied my charging is the same as it was before the smaller crank pulley.
 
dbarton said:
I worked on some designs very similar to this a few years ago and had a number of discussions about it with Josh at Yoshifab. I also had discussions with Fluidampr (not ATI) and they agreed it was certainly workable with one of their universal dampers. It's been done for other engines where a ready made pulley wasn't available and a shop here in Texas shared some of that with me (they were doing this for Toyota 2JZ motors). My thoughts are that if it was a standard V-belt (not serpentine) it would more likely be successful, unless someone also offered all other pulleys in serpentine (including AC) and brackets for idlers and a tensioner. It's a lot and would be really expensive. But if it was done as a V-belt pulley, not nearly so much. Also I would prefer NOT a smaller underdrive pulley to give the alternator a chance at charging. Yoshifab wasn't interested in getting involved and I decided it was too much to pursue this on my own.

Here are 3D images of what I had come up with using a full-size V-belt and Fluidampr. I'll be happy to share the info I have. If you make it, I'm a buyer.
View attachment 29087
View attachment 29088
Click to expand...
If you’d be interested in sharing CAD, send me a message. I may be able to assist in bringing this to life.
 
The stock damper is 7.2 lbs. The weight of a Fluidamprs is 8.6 lbs (for smallest, 6.625" diameter). Up to 12 lbs if you go with a big 8" diameter. I don't know the weights of ATI dampers, but they seem to have them in steel or aluminum, so maybe they can be lighter than Fluidamprs if that's the important thing.
 
t8fanning said:
I originally designed mine for the stock size V-belts, but changed it because some fast people from Sweden mentioned that they had trouble with vbelts coming off at high RPM, so I decided to go with a serpentine belt. Additionally, keeping the pulley at the stock size has some issues because it's a lot of material and the ATI damper is pretty heavy so the assembly would end up being heavier than the stock damper.

I designed mine to work with the KL racing serpentine belt kit, and with a smaller alternator pulley than KL supplied my charging is the same as it was before the smaller crank pulley.
Click to expand...
Ok. looking closer at your pic I see you did a hybrid with serpentine for alternator/waterpump and v-belt for PS. That could be doable as long as the pulleys you got remain available.
 
90volvo said:
I saw on Klracing has the ATI for the 2YZ engine, but nothinig for the ole redbock. Just curious has anyone modified a Ati fluid damper of somthing close to work on the redblock. I rebuilt my engine couple yrs ago and was talked out of having it balanced. Well I wish I had it balanced as I get vibrations at idle and or low Rpm. Anyways thanks.
Click to expand...
I'm actually in the process of trying to model up a test to see if a 2jz fluidampr could be used with a custom 2 row v-belt pulley to fit the redblock. The two greatest things in the way are that;
1. The damper starts 1/16th of an inch sooner on the 2jz (which might get in the way of the plastic), and the fluid damping part deletes the first row.
2. The keyway and bore for the dampr would need to be increased by 1mm (both of them, individually).

there's also the question of whether the 8 inch diameter damper will fit below the timing mark plastic, but that's a personal thing since I want to keep it intact, to help protect the timing belt.

I emailed fluidampr and one of the sales guys gave me a engineering drawing which I used to model it, I'm going to have a friend 3d print it. If everything lines up well enough, the next step will be getting a custom pulley made (or modifying an aftermarket or stock one).

They also told me that they would produce a dedicated fluidampr for the B230 with an MOQ of 100 pieces.
 
I'm not that knowledgeable in harmonics, but does anyone think an 8 inch damper is needed for a B230? The 6.625 inch one seems like a pretty good fit otherwise.
Dave
 
dbarton said:
I'm not that knowledgeable in harmonics, but does anyone think an 8 inch damper is needed for a B230? The 6.625 inch one seems like a pretty good fit otherwise.
Dave
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It's less about what's necessary, and more about the cost. All the fluidamprs cost about the same, but the 2jz one is the closest to b230 and would require the least amount of additional machining, thus least added cost. At least for me.
 
Smorgesborg said:
It's less about what's necessary, and more about the cost. All the fluidamprs cost about the same, but the 2jz one is the closest to b230 and would require the least amount of additional machining, thus least added cost. At least for me.
Click to expand...
Ok. If you go with that, please don't be like most people and keep the specs a secret. If it's a real option, then all the better choices for the rest of us.
 
I’ve been curious about something like this for the General Leif’s engine and asked Erland Cox about it. I don’t know if it’s necessary to run a damper as we don’t often have crank failures, but anything smoother is nicer on everything so it seems like it’d be a good idea. Apparently not a big enough deal for someone to produce something and even Erland often just runs the small, solid aluminum pulleys from what I gather. So that’s what we’re running.
 
So, uh, update on my modelling to figure out how to make a 2 row pulley with a fluidampr replacing the first row work on the redblock;

After suffering from a breakdown and many days of alternator issues that ended up being tied to running 1 V belt instead of 2 (using the factory pulley), I've reached the conclusion that the route that I wanted to go needed to have a serpentine to have any kind of reliability, which means getting a serpentine water pump pulley. So my desire to figure this out has significantly decreased with the complexity having increased.
 
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