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mission impossible?

jurgen banks

jurgen banks

New member
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
my short introduction:
my name is Adrian, i am 35 years old and i live in the south west of germany.

my short car history:
i drive bricks since i got my lisence. my first car ever was a 264. then after a lot of other cars i am now back to the roots. i had am 740 wagon, 740turbo wagon and now i have an 96`940 lpt wagon. the car is my "big project".
After my first succesful blockrebuild my plan was to introduce me and my car in a "long story"thread. but now i am at a point that i dont know if there is a reason to go on...

My big problem at the moment is the idle:
It is not smooth, it is not regular at 750 rpm. it is a lil bit sik. the car is shaking a lil bit while standing and while lower rpm`s. After 3000rpm its ok. its smooth and regular to the redline. I am not happy. I am frustrated. I must fix this problem. It makes me sik.

For my conditions i have done alot of work on this car and paid a lot of money and changed a lot of parts til now for the "stage 0". I have big plans with this. And i dont wont to give up.

My big question to all of you is:

Is it "possible" to make an old brick running smooth in an original shape???
while starting and standing crusing and runing.
Or am i looking for something that i will never find.
I know its an older car. its an 4 cylinder. but i can not belive that this idle problem is normal in this cars.

At the moment I hope you can help me out and give me new hope......

PS: and sorry for my english, its not the best but i think you will know what i mean.
 
your english is great, sounds like there might be a problem... first off check for vacuum leaks, then check timing, then injectors, fuel pressure... without more detail we may not be of much help. So:

What year/model?
What ignition system? (year and model will likely answer this unless somethings been tinkered with)
What has been changed?
What all have you tested? How did you test?
 
thx cwdodson88 for the quick reaction

carinfo:

its an 940 wagon. 1996. b230FK. M90L. LH2.4

list of the things and modifications that i have done yet.

-complete engine rebuilt including:
-all sealings, bearings, mounts, pistonrings,...
-checked clearence at crankshaft and oilpump...
-block and head are in a good condition
-new waterpump, belts, tensioner, oilseparator box,..
-head mashined with (0.1mm), new headgasket
-new in and out-valves (adjusted)
-new balancer,...
-the comp ratio looks good. i am happy with my mechanycally job....

-new sparks, wires, rotor and distributor cap
-ignition coil checked and changed
-new sensors like: oilpressure, temp, crankspeed, watertemp and knocksensor
-amm checked and cleaned
-new oxygensensor
-watertermostat
-new idle air control valve
-an overhaul alternator and a new battery

-airfilter,fuelfilter,oilfilter and of course new oil

-new 3" downpipe
-new 3" cat converter
-after cat 2.5" exhaust
-all steinless

-changed fuel pump relay
-overhauled injectors (checked the incoming voltage with an bosch light tester)
-turbo intake hoses and intercooler checked for pressure at 1.5 bar
-new vacuum hoses
-i have checked all parts for vacuum leaks with the spray test, no reaction
-trottle body cleaned, adjusted and checked for the "click"

-the turbo was not in a good condition
-i changed it whit a used but better one (13C)

-the car has now an oilpressure and temp gauge, and boost and voltage.
-a AFR gauge is my next step
-i kicked out the AGR-vent and his konverter
-i disconected the EVAP- System

i tryed alot of things but all without the solution that i am looking for.
i even changed the LH 2.4 from my 977 to a 962 version
all this without an reaction...

i know i have to check the fuelpressure and the fuelpump.
in two days i will go to a bosch service center and check the fuelpressure and the exhause gas. Maybe we will find something...

So cwdodson88.You think there is a problem that could be solved?
Do you think i will find what i am looking for? "The smoothness in my car?
 
I think a lot of idle problems are caused by electrical faults, mainly poor dirty connections. With all that you have done that is where I would look next.
 
Hey whats up,

i had the same issue as you are describing the car shook at idle and the idle was never steady.

it turned out that the intake manifold gasket was bad and runner #4 the gasket was blown out causing a major leak i replaced the gasket and all is well again it took awhile to find the issue i threw alot of money at it trying to figure out what the hell was going on with it.

i even put in a new set of injectors and it still did the same thing shaky idle hell the whole car shook until i replaced the intake manifold gasket.

Fitz
 
So first of all, thx for the answers

today i was at the bosch service.

The first thing we have done was a check of the axhaust gas.
what we saw on the monitor, is that the car runs definetly to rich.
what i can remember is that CO2 was at about 11 and the lambda at around 1.033.

this was the first thing i wanted to hear and to see because i was suspected this.
the car and espacialy the exhaust gases smells like fuel as hell and my consumption
is high too.
the second think i wanted to hear was that the bosch man said that the car has definatly a problem at idle.

Only when we rised the rpm`s over 2000, the numbers changed to a leaner ratio..

Then the buddy said that there can bee a vacuum leak somewhere.
So he did the spraytest whit no reaction.
After he checkd the engine for leaks he went to the back of the car and tryed to close the exhauste pipe. we had a lot of pressure and no leaks. while he was doing this i was looking at the area of the charger and downpipe, because i had a leak there 2-3 weeks ago, that i had fixed. So i can say. No leaks at the intake side, no vakuum leaks and no exhaust leaks.

So Fitz. I do not think there is a leak at the intake mani...

Step 3: Conecting the ECU whit the special BOSCH-reading tool.
He found the car in the list but he could not do anything. No codes, no infos, nothing...
in the year 1996 they began whit the ODB in this car and i do not know if there is even a good tool for reading out this car.

Step 4: Fuelpressure
The fuelsystem runs whit 2.5bar. its not 3bar. but we think its not the reason for my idle problem. after this he closed the fuelline to check the fuelpump. the gauge goes up to 6 bar.
so we can say that the pump is doing her job well.

After all this he disconected the watercoolant sensor. And he said that the exhaustgases have to change the numbers. but there was no reaction. So maybe there is a problem in the AMM to Oxygen-sensor circle.....It means the hole circle. Great.
So he said we can start to check the hole ECU circle. but it can take expensive hours whitout a result....

So for now i have to fight by my self again for a while.
I will select my green manuals, my DVD ebooks and the other info things like electrical plans an do a list whit all the part that are working in the ECU-circle.
I have to check all wires, clean all connections and measure all the things that i can whit my multimeter. Maybe i can change parts like the AMM-unit or the ECU-unit again.
Maybe i can find someone around me whit a TB that works great for testing and changing parts.
 
jurgen banks said:
S
After all this he disconected the watercoolant sensor. And he said that the exhaustgases have to change the numbers. but there was no reaction. So maybe there is a problem in the AMM to Oxygen-sensor circle.....It means the hole circle. Great.
So he said we can start to check the hole ECU circle. but it can take expensive hours whitout a result....
Click to expand...

You may be on to something with the AMM, possibly just a leak between the AMM and the throttle body.
 
If the engine was warm when the test were performed, it should have ran richer when the temp sensor was unhooked. New parts are not always good, pull the temp sensor and test it's resistance from room temp to engine operating temp.
 
vlvman said:
If the engine was warm when the test were performed, it should have ran richer when the temp sensor was unhooked. New parts are not always good, pull the temp sensor and test it's resistance from room temp to engine operating temp.
Click to expand...

Do this, and if it tests well, test for continuity in this circuit from the sensor to the ecu. Things should run differently when you unplug this
 
cwdodson88
I will definetly check the AMM whit my multimeter for voltage,resistance and mass and the part between the AMM and the intercooler for leaks.

johfraser
thx. the gunson tool looks interesting and helpfull but i think in the moment i have to check other things first.

vlvman
I will definetly check the resistance of the coolantsensor. espacialy at the difrent tempsteps.
I will check the new and the old one.

apachechef
I have changed the enginemounts at my enginerebuild. The are the green version. I hope they are not to soft. My plans for the future includes a third enginemount. thx

turbotankshane
I will try to do so. Maybe i will find something.

Thx for all replies to all of you.
Tomorrow i will start to test the brick...
 
Lil update.

While colecting and printing my informations for testing, i looked at this picture whit the speed sensor.

20150130_074622_zpshztvskda.jpg


I know this parts and its functions of the engine. But something made me
uncertain. My presumption was that something there was wrong.
I went down to the car to have a look at this place. And what i saw was unbelievable.

20150126_124851_zpsjk3pgiba.jpg


Like you see the sensor holder was mounted wrong. I dont know how this could happen.
Well. S**t happens.

The question now was: How im gonna fix this problem. The one way to turn the holder is when the engine is disconneted whit the tranny. The other way is to make place to turn it.

I decided to make place.
After a few hours i have got the result:

20150126_210822_zps5zhtahj5.jpg


So this big b**l s**t was fixed. Before i made the testdrive. I disconnected the battery to reset the ECU.

Then i started the engine. It felt strong. The idle was great and steady.

20150126_213039_zps1o6hmpsc.jpg


Then i made the testdrive. After warming up i began to run the brick and i must say the acceleration was great again. The car felt great. I was happy again.

But after the engine temp was warm and i was standing and idling it wasnt steady anymore.

I have ordered an used AMM. Maybe it will be here today or tomorrow.
I also have to test all the sensors. I could not do this till yet.

To be continued...
 
2.5 bar fuel pressure is lower than i would expect, i suspect that 2.5 was with running engine and vacuum line connected? then it sounds plausible.

Sometimes the membranes go bad in such a way that they leak a drop once every few seconds or so, causing a small stumble in the idle rpm. A new one won't break the bank.

Soem new/modern/super-duper spark plugs won't work with these engines. Tried a set of Volvo/NGK plugs?

On my 240 I made a new alternator-block-chassis ground from welding cable. Same with the positive lead between alternator and starter. Made a nice difference in charging voltage as well.

My 240 still has a somewhat irregular idle but that is probably due to the cam coupled with some things that are not at stage 0. Most 940's I see have a very stable idle, it is possible.
 
Another Update

I have done a lot of stuff since my last update.

First i have changed the used AMM that i have bought.

20150205_134103_zpsbxyegx0r.jpg


But without any difference.

And btw the conehaed is only for easier switching. Not for tuning. Not at the moment.
After this i have measured out both of them.

20150208_160900_zpsq9wqkfkw.jpg


I have the same results while measure them for resistance while disconected. the results looks good i think. the only difference is at pin 4 and 5 at the AMMs. My list from a german forum says that there have to be 24kOhm. I have measured out ca. 20-21kOhm.

The voltage while key in position 2 is 1.4V. While idle 2.4V and rises when i go up whit rpms. Numbers like i the manual.

One thing that i found out is the resistance between pin 1 at the conector and ground. The manual says there have to be ca. 0 Ohm. I measure 1 Ohm. Is this relevant?

I checked also the resistance between the intake mani and ground. 0.2 Ohm.

I also checked the Oxygen sensor. I switched the position whit my old sensor to the manifold to exclude leaks between the charger and my downpipe. It works well. the voltage moves between 0.1 and 0.9V.

20150207_185541_zpshoikbnc0.jpg


I also looked at the wire conections. No dirt. No oxidation. They looks good.

20150208_152320_zpsorbhuzfg.jpg


I checked and cleaned the ground conections at the intake mani, the body, the firewall, and the engine.

At the same time i monted a fuel pressure gauge.

20150207_185437_zpsb4iytqen.jpg


JW240
Like you say the pressure of 2.5 bar is at idle and whit conected vakuum hose. when i rise rpms the pressure rises. when i disconect the hose the pressure rise too. sometimes the pressure goes down to 2.2 - 2.3 bar. I have ordered a new one because like you say a new one "won't break the bank".
At first after the rebuild i had a ignitions setup witch includes a high voltage coil, the blue super duper ipd wires and ngks. now im back to OEM. My old coil whit a corect resistance between pin 1 and 15 of 0.8 Ohm. OEM wires and original Volvo plugs.
BTW. you are the first person that answered my question of the possibility. THX.

So after we checked the fuelmix circle and my feeling is good whit this (maybe i am wrong). We looked at the ignition circle today. We tested the Ignition Amplifiers. First i switched my AMP whit a older one from my 740. No difference. We checked the voltage signal from the EZK and the ground at the conector. We measured 0.1v. The manual says when this is corect i have to change the AMP. I will buy a new one. It "won't break the bank". The bank is almost broken.....

My car run so rich that the oil is full of gasoline. I have to change it. I do not drive so much right now til i fix this problem. Today we also checked the resistance of the coolant sensore.

turbotankshane
I must corect my words. the buddy at the bosch service disconected the sensor for the cluster gauge. Not the one for the L.H.

The new sensore works graet at the dirferent temps.

I think i can change maybe the EZK.

Today we also conected the car whit a buddys notebook whit a super duper software to read codes out. He found the car, the L.H and the EZK. No error codes. Only 111s.

After all i think i have an ignition fault like misfire. How can i check the ignition for faults i an easy way.

johfraser
THX for your tip but is it possible to see misfire when holding a plug in the near of the engine?

Idealgaslaw
The crank positon sensore is new.

Well my fight will go on ....
 
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