Using Propane in Volvo AC

[peehound]

Is this a Volvo 240 you are talking about when you mentioned the charge size of Duracool-propane, good info to know?

The reason it will not blow up or kill you, although a very remote chance of minor burns, is the mixture of propane needs to be between 5-15% propane to air. Of the mixture only the gas very close to you will burn, 6" away from a 75,000 Btu barbecue burner and your skin is fine, so that amount of gas is even more ridiculous to kill you. There is a video done at a university that I have been looking for and the typical amount of propane gas in a refrigerant charge was ignited and nothing blew up, just a good poof.

Look at the bright side if we did not have Freon where would we get our home made nerve gas from?

If it only burns close to you, I shouldn't worry?
BTW, 18oz. of propane will turn your car into the sheet metal whence it came, and you to the proverbial dust.

 

[dbarton]

If it only burns close to you, I shouldn't worry?
BTW, 18oz. of propane will turn your car into the sheet metal whence it came, and you to the proverbial dust.

Then what will 15 gal of premium gasoline do???

 

[peehound]

Then what will 15 gal of premium gasoline do???

Dibble on the ground.
Eh, WAT?

 

[Redwood Chair]

If it only burns close to you, I shouldn't worry?
BTW, 18oz. of propane will turn your car into the sheet metal whence it came, and you to the proverbial dust.

Dibble on the ground.
Eh, WAT?

You hacks move to the back of the bus.
The professor is in the house.

 

[moxy123]

peehound,

The amount of gas burning (btu's) from a possible hydrocarbon refrigerant leak is small so the fuel is consumed in seconds and a small amount of heat is released, it takes heat energy to burn the body and/or explode.

When the fuel source is large as a in a fuel tank the propane or gasoline generates far greater heat. I have not heard anyone say here hydrocarbons used as refrigerants could not cause minor burns or hair singe. What is ridiculous is to make statements like you will die, your car will explode or you will be vaporized. One should take a high school class in physics and pay attention with the chapter regarding heat energy and then comment. Read the contents of hair spray and make sure to warn the girls around you as well.

Freon has even greater risks, that is why it is being banned and other refrigerants are being used, propane is one and greatly so in Europe and elsewhere.

Replace your current refrigerant in your house A/C with hydrocarbon and reduce your cooling bill from 30-50% with an hour of labor and $50, this is no fairy tale. Add that up over five years, thousands of dollars. I guess that would be far too dangerous and Dupont cares about our safety that is why they stop it. I am sure as cautious as you are you never go into any private or public building that is heated with Natural Gas, correct?

A 2500 square foot house with a Natural Gas leak in the furnace that fills the house that is in the proper 5-15% air-fuel mixture to ignite with a electrical switch (spark) or furnace itself would release approximately 2,000,000 Btu's of heat energy.

 

[moxy123]

This is interesting and about what a mess refrigerant users are in and where we are going. r134a will be gone in Europe in a few months now, read link below.

The best of the best and the world has no answer. CO2 is less efficient then even r134a and has high side pressures of 3000 psi, break that line and see what happens. Everything they are looking at is much worse then where we are now, hydrocarbons and a little risk from flame are it I think as do many others.

http://issuu.com/publishgold/docs/feb08refrigerants

 

[peehound]

This is interesting and about what a mess refrigerant users are in and where we are going. r134a will be gone in Europe in a few months now, read link below.

The best of the best and the world has no answer. CO2 is less efficient then even r134a and has high side pressures of 3000 psi, break that line and see what happens. Everything they are looking at is much worse then where we are now, hydrocarbons and a little risk from flame are it I think as do many others.

http://issuu.com/publishgold/docs/feb08refrigerants

Actually, I work in a physics lab where we use CO2 as a refrigerant; the high side pressures are a little over 1000 psi.

From Wikipedia:
"A thermobaric weapon, which includes the type known as a "fuel-air bomb", is an explosive weapon that produces a blast wave of a significantly longer duration than those produced by condensed explosives. This is useful in military applications where its longer duration increases the numbers of casualties and causes more damage to structures.

Thermobaric explosives rely on oxygen from the surrounding air, whereas most conventional explosives consist of a fuel-oxygen premix (for instance, gunpowder contains 15% fuel and 75% oxidizer). Thus, on a weight-for-weight basis they are significantly more powerful than normal condensed explosives. Their reliance on atmospheric oxygen makes them unsuitable for use underwater or in adverse weather, but they have significant advantages when deployed inside confined environments such as tunnels, caves, and bunkers."

Or cars.

 

[moxy123]

peehound,

The link lists models of propane refrigerators which use propane as a refrigerant and are powered by a burner running on propane heating the refrigerant coil. These have been used in mass quanities for well over fifty years in travel trailers all over the world.

Would this be considered a explosive bomb?

http://www.propanerefrigerator.us/propane_refrigerator_rv_propane.htm


added: I incorrectly stated propane as the refrigerant above and it is typically ammonia and hydrogen gas in the system for absorption cooling but the point is the same, flammable gas can be used safely if the equipment is designed properly.

 

[dbarton]

Ok... drove 400 or so miles from SoCal to San Francisco the other day... then to Davis today. Used AC for portions of the drive when it was warm enough. Again... worked great!
Dave

 

[dbarton]

Installed propane in an '84 240 (non-turbo) today. Took 8.2 oz. Old 2-piston York compressor. Also added a junkyard condenser fan. While idling in my garage for about 45 minutes with AC on about 1/2 (knob at 5 o'clock), fan on position 2, recirc button depressed, ambient between 65-70F, vent temp was a consistent 32 degrees. Woohoo!
Dave

 

[vlvman]

I may have to try this on my 740.
Glad it is working well for you.

 

[moxy123]

Installed propane in an '84 240 (non-turbo) today. Took 8.2 oz. Old 2-piston York compressor. Also added a junkyard condenser fan. While idling in my garage for about 45 minutes with AC on about 1/2 (knob at 5 o'clock), fan on position 2, recirc button depressed, ambient between 65-70F, vent temp was a consistent 32 degrees. Woohoo!
Dave

The test will be working from one extreme to the other. Low ambient without freezing up and then high ambient with good capacity to cool.

Another tidbit; page two, last paragraph:

http://www.hychill.com.au/tech/

 

[JohnLane]

Installed propane in an '84 240 (non-turbo) today. Took 8.2 oz. Old 2-piston York compressor. Also added a junkyard condenser fan. While idling in my garage for about 45 minutes with AC on about 1/2 (knob at 5 o'clock), fan on position 2, recirc button depressed, ambient between 65-70F, vent temp was a consistent 32 degrees. Woohoo!
Dave

Nice work Dave.

I will try this in the future.

 

[Turbosundance]

I use the hydrocarbon refrigerant in my 95 940 with great results other than stupid vacuum leak problems and a small refrigerant leak that I keep putting off finding and fixing.

Making hydrocarbon refrigerants illegal is not only stupid but rediculous. Seems like Dupont has too many friends in high places.

 

[dbarton]

Making hydrocarbon refrigerants illegal is not only stupid but rediculous. Seems like Dupont has too many friends in high places.

I was probably in error in my first post when I said that hydrocarbon refrigerant were probably not legal. Since then I have read somewhere in the Duracool site that in the USA changing from R134a to a hydrocarbon refrigerant was just fine. The illegality is apparently changing from R12 to HC, for whatever stupid reason. The site also mentioned that in Canada there was no legal issues either way.
Dave B

 

[moxy123]

The exchange of refrigerants is at the Federal level (EPA) I believe and there are 19 states that also make it illegal in auto's I think. Nothing I have read about private homes.

 

[dbarton]

The exchange of refrigerants is at the Federal level (EPA) I believe and there are 19 states that also make it illegal in auto's I think. Nothing I have read about private homes.

You are correct.

Quoted text from: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html

The following 19 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12a? and DURACOOL 12a? in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia.

Otherwise....

Is it legal to replace HFC-134a in a motor vehicle with hydrocarbon refrigerants such as DURACOOL 12a? and HC-12a??
In certain circumstances, the replacement of HFC-134a in a motor vehicle with hydrocarbon refrigerants might be permitted. At a minimum, in order to avoid violating the Clean Air Act, the motor vehicle A/C system must have either been originally designed for use with HFC-134a refrigerant, or must have been previously retrofitted from CFC-12 to HFC-134a refrigerant, AND no sham retrofit must have occurred to convert the system to the hydrocarbon refrigerant. In order to avoid violating other laws, the replacement of the refrigerant must not violate any state or local prohibition on the use of flammable refrigerants in motor vehicle A/C systems.

 

[moxy123]

Dupont protecting their expensive Freon and patents and refrigerant techs protecting their high rates and expensive mutiple hoses and pumps.

Dupont makes Freon.

God makes propane.

The choice is yours.

 

[dbarton]

Driving home 1.5 hours on Saturday saw ambient temps over 100 deg F. Didn't get precise vent temps then, but they were very, very cold on the freeway. I had the AC set to about mid-way, fan on 2, recirc button 'on'. Froze my butt off. The only point the system didn't push extreme cold air was after I got home, I left it idling for a while and checking vents they had warmed up to 48 deg. Still, that was approx 55 deg below ambient. Can't complain. I would estimate they were in the 30s on the freeway.

But after I parked the car I sure found a lot of water condensation dripping from the drain tube. Made a puddle about 2 feet across.

Moxy123's advice that it may need a bit more charge is probably valid. Think I'll try upping the charge a bit. Pretty sure right now it's running about 8 to 9 oz.

 

[moxy123]

Check the evap for ice, sounds like it is starting to freeze up and melted ice is draining at idle. More Freon will might make it worse if it is freezing up, maybe move the bulb to a lower runing temp point on the evaporator to reduce cooling at lower loads.