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We measured Redblock cam valve events; here's what we got.

Stiggy Pop

In the cool kids club
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Location
Granville, MA
How are you guys jigging things up? We set up the dial indicator but in order to reach the bucket and clear everything it is at a slight angle. That's going to slightly skew total values. For me it doesn't matter as much because I mostly just need the profile and to use the data to calculate valve acceleration so it's good data. I'll clean up my scratch pad and submit it for posterity.

aKHHAFg.jpg


if any huge brain wants to help me make sense of this hit me up :lol: It'd help if it wasn't translated from Turkish!
http://www.makalesistemi.com/panel/...b5e2d4b7f8963e7535d45e7aa/37506f903036f02.pdf
 

shoestring

Active member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Location
Swampscott, 01907
I have a special little finger that screws onto the end of my dial indicator that comes out at like a 75 degree angle so that the indicator's movement is vertical.

That exhaust closing ramp looks pretty aggressive.
 

Stiggy Pop

In the cool kids club
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Location
Granville, MA
I have a special little finger that screws onto the end of my dial indicator that comes out at like a 75 degree angle so that the indicator's movement is vertical.

That exhaust closing ramp looks pretty aggressive.

maybe that's why my exhaust valve was bouncing :lol:
 

shoestring

Active member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Location
Swampscott, 01907
OK homies, I have got a V inbound, and have yet to do the T we have. I think that should do it for the factory pieces, with the exception of the VX3?
 

B20Paul

New member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Great Work Shoestring!!

I've measured 2 dozen B20 cams, so I know how much time and effort this takes.

Stupid question number one: What is the HOT running clearence of these things?

Also, next time, take .001" measurements atleast for 10? each side of official lash, this will tell you how far you can stretch or shrink for a crude duration test, to give you a direction on which lobe duration next time you pick one.
 

redblockpowered

mails files to people
Joined
May 5, 2015
Location
Swampscott, MA
Great Work Shoestring!!

I've measured 2 dozen B20 cams, so I know how much time and effort this takes.

Stupid question number one: What is the HOT running clearence of these things?

Also, next time, take .001" measurements atleast for 10? each side of official lash, this will tell you how far you can stretch or shrink for a crude duration test, to give you a direction on which lobe duration next time you pick one.

Hot valve lash is .35-.45 mm, or 16-19 thou versus the cold .30-.40 mm.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the second part. You mean the difference in duration between tightest possible lash and loosest? I know shoestring and I discussed that at one point and measured it on at least one cam with the difference being pretty trivial (K cam if I recall correctly, with the number being about four degrees which sounds significant until you think of the valve open area). Then again I may be misremembering.

Looking forward to it warming up here in MA so we can do more measurement. Good to hear more people are out there measuring stuff!
 

haltechsupra

New member
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Location
Texas
Great work! IN for 16v cam differences. Penta, vs car. And other offered upgrades would be of epic porportions Sirs.
 

culberro

Ronald Culberbone III
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Location
Redmond, OR
Have you thought of using a softer, but longer, spring under the bucket without a retainer and valve? This would eliminate the duration errors due to the lash. Measuring the cams with lash is lowering the total duration figures and making the opening/closing ramps look more aggressive.

While this is very comparative, it's lacking in accuracy if someone was to compare lift and duration values for a cam that was not measured this exact way.
 

shoestring

Active member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Location
Swampscott, 01907
Have you thought of using a softer, but longer, spring under the bucket without a retainer and valve? This would eliminate the duration errors due to the lash. Measuring the cams with lash is lowering the total duration figures and making the opening/closing ramps look more aggressive.

I didn't, mostly because we measure these out on my daily. I hear what you're saying. If manufacturers advertised what lift value they use, I would have used it. As it is, when I look at other charts displaying similar info (such as the cam chart that's listed on this website under "resources", none of my numbers line up. It looks to me like those may have been measured on "lash plus 0.5mm". It's just a guess, albeit an educated one. Like anything, you don't know what you don't know.

Measuring with the lash provides an accurate representation of what you're getting, installed and running. It may vary slightly if you fudge your lash figure, but I don't think it's going to affect how the engine performs. They're just not that refined.



While this is very comparative, it's lacking in accuracy if someone was to compare lift and duration values for a cam that was not measured this exact way.

It's why we tried to provide as many duration@lift points as we could think of. Even domestic manufacturers aren't totally comparative. Crane, for example, says seat-to-seat timing is measured at 0.006", Comp says it's at 0.004". Corporate secrets, I guess.

agap.se is very good at showing duration@lift figures. Aside from them, the rest is guesswork.
 

klr142

Turbo, what?
Joined
May 7, 2004
Location
OR
It may vary slightly if you fudge your lash figure, but I don't think it's going to affect how the engine performs. They're just not that refined.

agap.se is very good at showing duration@lift figures. Aside from them, the rest is guesswork.
Lash definitely has an effect on how the car runs. Make them too tight and it?ll idle poorly as well as have worse emissions and drivability below 2000rpm or so. At least with a larger than M or T cam, anyway.

Yes, Agap?s info rocks!
 

shoestring

Active member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Location
Swampscott, 01907
Lash definitely has an effect on how the car runs. Make them too tight and it?ll idle poorly as well as have worse emissions and drivability below 2000rpm or so. At least with a larger than M or T cam, anyway.

Yes, Agap?s info rocks!

You're probably correct here. Sometimes I forget that my perspective is almost exclusively "measureable on a dyno".

Shame on me for the blanket statement.
 

klr142

Turbo, what?
Joined
May 7, 2004
Location
OR
I have an unknown cam I would like to send in to get some more info on. It?s a lower lift cam with a good bit of duration like the older style rally cams and was something I think IPD had a one off made many years ago? So I just box it up and send it over?
 

klr142

Turbo, what?
Joined
May 7, 2004
Location
OR
Custom IPD grind done by Oregon Cam Grinders is boxed up, just need to ship it out... I'm still curious of your T cam data if you can get that measured at some point, too. No rush, of course, as it's just curiosity!
 

shoestring

Active member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Location
Swampscott, 01907
Added the Volvo "V" today, and a cam supplied by klr142 we're calling "OC352" because that's the only marking on it.

Currently I run the V in my 240, which is stock B230F (w/EGR), milled 0.040 for 9.8:1, and M47. I used to use the A, but I can say that the V is a little friendlier to the LH2.4. Idle and driveability are a little better (marginal but noticeable), fuel economy MAY be 0.5mpg combined better. MAYBE.

We didn't have time to check the T today, but we will get to it. Given it takes a while to just set it up to check, I'd like to have another on deck when we do it. ENEM V15 or KG003 or something like that would be awesome, something we can all have access to. Any takers?

Big thanks to Kyle for helping to expand the database!
 
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