• Hello Guest, welcome to the initial stages of our new platform!
    You can find some additional information about where we are in the process of migrating the board and setting up our new software here

    Thank you for being a part of our community!

We measured Redblock cam valve events; here's what we got.

I had our KG7 ground on a 110 lobe sep. I think carbs would have been better, or if fuel economy didn't matter in our application. Makes me think about L98s in the late 80's, early 90's...the cams that places like Arizona Speed and Marine or Lingenfelter were all ground on 114 or MAYBE 112 lobe sep, so there was onlt so much total duration you could put in them. Couple that with poor head flow and a restrictive intake (sound familiar?) and you were only going to get so many rpm, and with that only so much hp.
 
I pulled my broken V15 NA cam out today while organizing things. Should I send it in anyway? I know you have the V15 Turbo cam... and who knows when I would actually send it, considering the pandemic. :-(

hey I re-found the c2 whilst cleaning the shop last night. I'll work on getting it out the door.
Ready to send it yet? :lol:

I had our KG7 ground on a 110 lobe sep. I think carbs would have been better, or if fuel economy didn't matter in our application.
I forgot to respond after reading this. That's just crazy that it had so little low end!
 
Yeah Kyle, you can send it. We're getting to the time of the year when the weather is a crap shoot, but hey, it's broken, so I'd imagine there's no huge rush to get it back. Plus, I have very little else to do right now...

Oh yeah. It sounded SO AWESOME at idle, but as soon as we started the dyno pull, we all just kinda looked at each other and knew it was going to show poor numbers. It was so flat it was terrible. By flat I mean it didn't sound like it was accelerating with any kind of emphasis. I don't want it to reflect badly on the cam, it just wasn't appropriate for our application. We could have thrown a crapload of fuel at it, and who knows where it would have ended up, it could have been really good, absolute numbers wise. It would have been a waste of dyno time ($$$) for us to do that, though, so we just opted to call it quits. In retrospect, Cam and I both regret not tuning it and seeing what the results could have been.
 
I'm curious how much the K-jet intake manifold makes a difference. When I put my big valve head back on my 244, I'll put in the K13 and see what it does again with the stock b230 intake. I have a better port job, I'll have more compression and a larger header than compared to the first time I had it in the car. Even then it wasn't bad, but now I'll be able to compare it to the k-jet intake(and stock valves, 405 head, stock exhaust manifold) we ran on the General with such great results.
 
Camshaft is in the mail! It should be there next Wednesday or later on UPS ground.
 
Might as well put this here. The only thing it needs right now is better numbers for the V15 camshafts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mJbG1bW04PouNe1qFhTMYY-DZj-Ru_FCCeNlue4EeLw/edit?usp=sharing
Is it possible to make another one that is editable so we can plug in other information for our own specifications? Nice work!

Also, everyone should remember that we can run tighter and looser valve clearances to make camshafts act larger and smaller. I set up my T cam in my basically stock B230F 1987 244 at .012" or so, then retarded the cam 4 degrees, and it would pull past 5,000rpm(and did a 17.3 1/4 mile with an automatic). The M cam setup similarly but without the retardation was a 17.6 1/4 mile. Running stock clearances of over .016" would've been marginally slower. It can be a significant difference between setting valve clearances at .015"(or tighter) and .020", especially on some cams(Enem K13?!). That being said, on aftermarket camshafts you should probably listen to the cam builders and keep it at least close to what they recommend(especially if it's something more aggressive, like the Enem C2).

On that note, if you're having trouble getting passed emissions testing, loosen up those clearances. That got me through the local testing at idle more than once.
 
Last edited:
Is it possible to make another one that is editable so we can plug in other information for our own specifications? Nice work!

Also, everyone should remember that we can run tighter and looser valve clearances to make camshafts act larger and smaller. I set up my T cam in my basically stock B230F 1987 244 at .012" or so, then retarded the cam 4 degrees, and it would pull past 5,000rpm(and did a 17.3 1/4 mile with an automatic). The M cam setup similarly but without the retardation was a 17.6 1/4 mile. Running stock clearances of over .016" would've been marginally slower. It can be a significant difference between setting valve clearances at .015"(or tighter) and .020", especially on some cams(Enem K13?!). That being said, on aftermarket camshafts you should probably listen to the cam builders and keep it at least close to what they recommend(especially if it's something more aggressive, like the Enem C2).

On that note, if you're having trouble getting passed emissions testing, loosen up those clearances. That got me through the local testing at idle more than once.

I'll draw up a version where people can fork off copies of it. I think that may be difficult right now because there is a component that relies on a custom script. I also want to add something to account for different valve clearances.
 
I dig it...I have no idea what I'm looking at, really, but I dig it :). I've got a B21A with an A cam already in it on the stand, and am considering swapping it into a B230F I just acquired and going back to carbs. It's nice to see numbers so I can learn.
 
I'll draw up a version where people can fork off copies of it. I think that may be difficult right now because there is a component that relies on a custom script. I also want to add something to account for different valve clearances.
Any update? :)

100,000 views. I guess you guys find this at least interesting, if not useful. Thanks!
I wonder how many are mine... Maybe 10,000? :rofl:
 
lol yeah you and me both. Talk about padding my stats...

Anyway, there are a couple additions, and I've gone through all the sheets again and made a couple clerical corrections, now shown in red. We also completely remeasured the K but it's essentially the same, with the exception of very low lift figures 0.001 and 0.005. We found only a couple degrees variation, within the tolerance of the tools we're working with. Why remeasure? I had to replace my dial indicator and wanted to compare.

I will say that in review, some of our "Intake lift at TDC" figures were not correct. On those that were not, I entered the value we recorded on our paper sheets with any notes. Again, if they were corrected, they're in red. Given that we here don't really use that figure, it shouldn't cause too much stir but thought I should be up front.
 
ENEM camshaft info and Ian R(IADR)'s compiliation!

Intake lift at TDC is good for comparing to what a lot of aftermarket camshafts suggest, though! So, thank you for that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attached I have GREAT old data as compiled by Ian R(IADR) from back in the day that I converted from HTML to PDF so it could be shared and saved here. There is great information in here about camshaft design and reading camshaft info for people new to this, as well as great measured info for many camshafts and more info accompanying each!

I also added some pages from an ENEM PDF that shows their Volvo camshafts and also their intended RPM operating range. See below for the Google translated information taken from their opening of this PDF(ENEM Kamaxlar med tabell.pdf). Sorry I can't link the original document here with pictures, it is too large to attach to the post but I can email it to anyone interested.

Maybe a link from the first page of this thread to where we have these tidbits of good additional info/links/documents would be good, Dan?


Google translated wording from the ENEM document these two pages are taken from. Some data is missing in the conversion as it is going around pictures and messed up in translation, sorry!:
Many people associate ENEM with camshafts and it may not be so con-has been designing and manufacturing camshafts for over 25 years. All combs with an ENEM number is ground on new raw materials, which gives the camshafts ma base circle as original (with a few exceptions where this is not possible). In this way, original shims fit for valve adjustment, hydraulic lifter works as they should and the valve geometry will be correct. The profiles are of course calculated using a computer and software. but for this we have had to develop ourselves, which has given us the opportunity to adapt the calculations in line with new engines and new technologies. No camshaft manufacturer can create optimal camshafts with just one computer and a program, they must be tested to confirm that the data supplied entered into the computer were the right ones. Experience means that you often get close immediately the final result, but when looking for the optimal, it is important to you test and optimize settings yourself, etc. This is something we have consistently done at ENEM because we are also a build complete engines with test bench for testing and development.

An interior image from the test bench and a Rallycross engine. Here different camshafts and settings are tested, injection systems are programmed, etc. A common misconception is that we only work with Opel engines. Of course we drive a lot Opel but it is just as much of other brands. This is partly due to the fact that we, as general agent for MBE Systems in Scandinavia, deliver complete injection systems and also brakes and folds the engines. When it comes to camshafts, we grind Alfa, Audi, BMW, Ford, Peugeot, Volvo, VW, etc. for colleagues. Of course, we also get from them "feed back" that talks about what is going well and less well. By this we mean that an ENEM comb is a quality product that works, moreover usually to one lower price, there are no middlemen because we manufacture ourselves.

Sharpening camshafts is a craft. Of course there are controlled fully automatic machines but you can only find such at
the car manufacturers. The machine is controlled by so-called production masters which in turn was made from the primordial master that we milled out after a data list. One for exhaust and one for intake. The ridge angle is fixed between the masts and the entire master package is rotated with fixed indexes between the cylinders, which guarantees precise division.

Page 2
CAMAXAS
Our stationary test bench can handle to brake just over 600 hp - which has happened several times, Porsche dual-turbo, Viper GTR, K?nigsaegg etc. The torque we can handle is just over 1100 Nm at about 2500 laps - which was also tested. An interior image from the test bench and a Rallycross engine. Here different camshafts and settings are tested, injection systems are programmed, etc. A common misconception is that we only work with Opel engines. Of course we drive a lot Opel but it is just as much of other brands. This is partly due to the fact that we, as general agent for MBE Systems in Scandinavia, deliver complete injection systems and also brakes and folds the engines. When it comes to camshafts, we grind Alfa, Audi, BMW, Ford, Peugeot, Volvo, VW, etc. for colleagues. Of course, we also get from them "feed back" that talks about what is going well and less well. By this we mean that an ENEM comb is a quality product that works, moreover usually to one lower price, there are no middlemen because we manufacture ourselves.

Page 3
CAMSHAFT - MOTORNSNERVE!
Sounds dramatic but the fact remains, it is camshaft times and lift height that decide the character of the engine. Long comb times improve high-speed properties but deteriorates at low revs, shorten the satta. Choosing the right comb is always one
compromise, preferably one wants do not abandon the low speed the engine but the engine gets happy to give more effect on higher turn...
Every cam designer's ambi-is, of course, to achieve get the best of each but it must always be a compromiss, the comb that gives a lot of peak power is coming always to lose some of the tendrils and vice versa.

Opel 1.6-2.4 X1 288/109 / 11.7 / 2.2
This is how we specify the camshafts' designation and data, and this is what the codes mean:
? X1 is a coordinate that indicates where in our archive we are shall find the master of the comb. So it has nothing to do with what kind of comb it is or how sharp.
? 288 is the duration in crankshaft degrees, the measure of how many degrees the crankshaft rotates from the time the valve opens until it closes. Longer duration usually means a sharper comb, short duration a kinder with a certain reservation: Combs for 4-valve stops are due to it larger valve area with two intake and two exhaust valves and lighter mechanism gene- really sharper with same duration than corresponding comb intended for a 2-valve stop.
? 109 is the ridge angle , the number of degrees between the center line of the cams measured on the camshaft. A smaller ridge angle means - among other things - that the overlap is longer, ie both valves are at the same time open for more degrees.
It is often said that a sharp comb always has a small ridge angle and most often it is true but again there are exceptions. Depending on the conditions in the crank the mechanism (stake lengths / stroke) and intake the length of the pipes gives many engines more power on high revs with a larger ridge angle. Overcharged engines provide almost without exception more effect with large ridge angle.
? 11.7 is the valve lift, given at 0-valve play. More lift gives, if the top flows more on high valve lifts, more effect. You usually do normally try to make the combs with as much lift as it is possible without stress one on the valve mechanism gets too high. When it comes to sports combs, we take also consideration of how much lift one can have without having to change springs etc.
? 2.2 is the opening of the intake valve at the top dead center, when the piston is in the top position. This is the setting measure for the comb, as we are found that it works best. You measure best by fitting an indicator clock on one suction valve, pull the engine clockwise from the front as it then goes and reads how much the valve opened on the ?D. When measuring, the valve clearance must be set correctly if it is a cam for mechanical valve lifters, if it is a hydraulic you must measure at 0-game. Can be difficult with a new hydraulic lifter, it will be the mute only when you run the engine for a few minutes.

If you have fitted a sharper cam, remember to always check the clearance between valves and pistons. When the cam is set correctly, you should have at least 2.0 mm clearance. If there is an adjustment, turn it down so that the valves open 2.0 mm, (one cylinder at a time), remove the pins and carefully pull the engine around in the direction of rotation. you know immediately if it receives, or if valve springs bottom, etc. If so, you must mill deeper valve outlets in the pistons, replace valve springs or whatever it takes to get it around. In our list of camshafts, we have tried to specify a suitable speed range, graded from 1-6. If you need a standard comb, then 1 applies. If you choose 6, we have assumed that the engine will be tande run at high speeds under competition conditions, and the engine is ready-set for this, you have high compression, double carburetor or injection, suitable exhaust system etc. Our experience is to recommend one ?for please ?comb, it turns out in most cases that the car goes faster - or is better that drive - with a wider effektregister, one should not be too presumptuous and add to the top. An engine intended to run over 4000 laps requires a good gearbox and an experienced driver.
 

Attachments

  • b21.23cam.page.full.pdf
    39.8 KB · Views: 24
  • b21.23cam.page.shortcombo.pdf
    37.7 KB · Views: 15
  • lobesepcompare.jpg
    lobesepcompare.jpg
    17.4 KB · Views: 161
  • ENEM Kamaxlar med tabell(p. 4, 9-10).pdf
    88.1 KB · Views: 19
Last edited:
These attachments are very good. I assume the ones that mention the Cam Doctor were the only ones to be run on the Cam Doctor?

You're right, some relevant links would be good here. From messing with this stuff and learning about for the better part of 35 years, I've come to understand that what I know might mean something, but maybe not for the reason I thought. I really like Richard Holdener's YouTube channel, he does some FANTASTIC side-by-side and direct dyno comparisons. Gale Banks' series on Killing a Duramax is excellent too. He does data collection like a superhero. This is how my brain works when I start down this path.

I'll try to find some stuff from David Vizard. I hold him in pretty high regard.
 
RSI Stage 3 vs IPD Turbo camshaft on a B230f+t(I think?) with a K24 turbo:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DurqbVVWT5k" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
So I know this would totally throw a curveball at your documentation, but what if you measured the cams at zero lash. You can set a weak coil spring over the original spring if it's a complete head.
Then you get the fulllllll picture of how the cam works vs using a standard valve lash, and if someone runs 0.25mm lash you'll know what the duration change is. You also don't have to mess around with valve lash.

Just saying.
 
Back
Top