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What were the reasonings for 530 beating 531?

Captain Bondo

Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
300+ Club
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
I remember some of the old timers didn't favore the 531/405 style heads, maybe I'm wrongl. Just wondering becuase I got to have a good, long look at the 405 from my parts car and it seems like a no-brainer choice vs. the 530/398. It looks better than most ported "small" heads as is.

Bigger, more intelligent intake design and a even more significantly a considerably better exhaust port especially at the short side radius.

It seems like a lot of material should/could be removed from the roof of the intake though for the first 1-1.5" of the port... any other thoughts on obvious improvements to this head? (I plan to do a before and after flow and port this one myself).
 

245gti

Adapting Stuff
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Location
Calgary, Alberta
Matt and I have a badly warped 405 head. Matt was going to get it sliced to see where and how much material could be safely removed. Engine transplants and rebuilds seem to have to have taken up a fair amount of our spare time this summer. Perhaps we can get into that soon and I can put up some pictures....
 

GTJordan

Been here for too long
Joined
Jul 6, 2002
Location
Edmonton AB
Dale,

It seems to me, that Matt already had the 405 cut up when I was last out there.... We compared the exhaust port, and the short side, there was no meat there, and very sharp exit. Matt then tried to explain to me, if he were to build a 405, or when people DO build them, they add material there...

Maybe this is a the 398 he had, but I do think it was a 405

Jordan
 

dl242gt

The world of the smiling Dogo
Joined
Jun 21, 2002
Location
S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
The 531 is the most preferable because it's always a SCP head. There may be other reasons. SCP 405 heads are probably kinda hard to find.

Best regards,
 

MikeHardy

The Sirius/Nova Police
Joined
Nov 29, 2002
Location
northern Wales, UK
large.jpg


yes they are, here the one that came with my B23ET
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
GTJordan said:
Dale,

It seems to me, that Matt already had the 405 cut up when I was last out there.... We compared the exhaust port, and the short side, there was no meat there, and very sharp exit. Matt then tried to explain to me, if he were to build a 405, or when people DO build them, they add material there...

Maybe this is a the 398 he had, but I do think it was a 405

Jordan

Nope, it was a 398 that was cut up. We fingered up a 405. I suggested that adding some material to the floor of the exhaust ports would be a good idea, but I don't think many people actually do this. It would be very difficult to weld in a chunk, and then you'd have substantial warping and softening of the head that would need to be taken care of.

IMO, this intake port is very nice. It's a stock BCP 398. A little work would make it flow very well. Unfortunately I don't have a 405 cut up yet to show you, but I'm not convinced that it's the way to go, however tuners must use it (and the 531) for a reason... Out of the box it's probably better, but the 398 leaves lots of room for cutting.
http://www3.telus.net/public/dupuis10/398int1.jpg

Here's the 398 exhaust, from the same head. The 405 ain't much better - it's got a slightly higher roof at the valve guide boss, but otherwise it's much the same. Same sharp edge at the short side, but I HAVE seen a little better casting quality on the 405s there (you can't cut your finger on the short side radius like on the 398) Some serious short side work is needed here, IMO.
http://www3.telus.net/public/dupuis10/398exh1.jpg

These pictures only show two dimensions, which is good enough for the 398, but the intake of the 405 widens out near where it turns, and the floor raises up to make a more gradual short side. It would look like the 405 intake is more restrictive (smaller) if I had pictures to show you.

If ANYONE can get honest, repeatable numbers for both 398 style and 405 style heads, with the conditions they were flowed and the corrections applied, I would be forever in your debt. Of secondary concern are tuner head flows, but they would be very enlightening as well.
 

mikep

Mega-Neuro-Spicey
Joined
May 24, 2003
Location
38? 27' N 75? 29' W
Not trying to knock those nice intake ports, but the "small"volvo heads are a little unbalanced, intake/exhaust flow wise, and the 531 intake flows even more, meaning more unbalanced.
Just make sure you pay attention to the exhaust flow on the 530, and especially on the 531, and you will be OK with either.
I don't have access to a flow bench, so I can't quote flow numbers, just observations from experience.
Even the small Volvo heads are way better than most 2-valve heads.
 
G

Guest

Guest
The search feature can be very helpful. I found this in less than 5 minutes. On 2/25/03, Ian posted the following:

"cfm @ 28" for stock 405; fitted with 3.70" (94mm) bore tube
ALL head casting #'s have have identical exhaust ports.
405 is larger intake port configuration.

Int
.100 = 50.5
.200 = 101.5
.300 = 145
.400 = 159.5
.500 = 168

exh
.100 = 39
.200 = 78
.300 = 100
.400 = 107.5
.500 = 115"

I do not know whether Ian developed these numbers or found them somewhere. 405 and 531 heads are reportedly quite similar in design and flow. I have never tested a 531 head, but would guess these 405 flow numbers are about right for a 405 or a 531. The intake is about what I got on my 530 (which is reportedly quite similar in design and flow to a 160 or a 398) with stock valves AFTER moderate porting. Figure on about 20% less before porting; intake flow was not valve limited as much as port limited. The exhaust is what I got on my 530 with stock valves BEFORE porting. In testing, exhaust flow was valve limited more than port limited. For more efficient turbo use, both larger exhaust valves and extensive exhaust porting are a good idea, though much can be overcome through more boost (and with that comes more heat and at some point less efficiency).

Philip Bradley
 

Forg

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Location
Retirement Village, Sydney
As someone who knows NOTHING about porting or the like, I thought the danger in all this flowbench-based work was that your ports just wouldn't suit the engine (wrong flow characteristics, slow gasflow, things like that) ... and that a lot of the time, work on a flowbench yielded performance decreases on the road or track? Haven't the more experienced engine builders said that you need experience in what works, in terms of grinding out material, because simply bigger isn't actually better?
 

Kjets On a Plane

Active member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Location
Californicated Oregone
[quote:7202bb2606]ALL head casting #'s have have identical exhaust ports. [/quote:7202bb2606]
Are you sure? I could have sworn that the 530 had a plateau kinda thing after the valve in a way that the 405/531 didn't.
the 531 has the nicer sprak plug location over the 405, but I would guess it flows about the same, it is just SCP as has been mentioned.
Never seen a 405 except in pics, not exactly something that you find in a junkyard here.
I think it has been mentioned before that if have a 2.3 bore engine or bigger that it is fine to use the 405/531, but on smaller bore/smaller engines it is not ideal.
Passing exhaust emissions is also something to consider with the smaller CC and maybe exhaust reversion chambers of the 530?
If you don't have to do either of the above, then it might make plenty of sense to use the larger CC head and be able to use a softer cam.
Big valves have their drawbacks, I would tentatively say that it would make more sense to use a head that flows better with an optimised spark location with a 2.3 volvo gasoline engine, al la 531 casting.
That is just my interpretation of what I have read, but you must e aware of most of this, maybe I don't fully understand yet.
 

CNGBrick

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Location
Caraquet NB Canada
Just a note: I just got my '530 head back from a rebuild. Looking at the exhaust port the short side radius feels smoother than a '405 and '130 (?) I have for comparison.

RT
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Stock 405 and 531 are good for about 190hp.
Stock small 160,398 and 530 are good for about 140-150hp

With litlle cleaning big ones go about 215-220hp and small ones up to 160-170hp.

Small ones max is about 200, big valve and a lot of work.
Big ones max is more than 300...

These are numbers in NA engines.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Bready said:
And those stats are based on what?

JB

Picked up in lots of sources, one is KG-trimning in Sweden, discussed with few guys that have measured there heads and discussed with guys that do this kind of headwork (volvospecialists too).
Done one 530 for my use, havent benched that yet...
Chancing just the head (530->531) will give you dramatically 5-8hp gain in naturally aspirated, put a better cam too-> it will give you opportunity to have much more power.
I?m going to get my other car?s (240-90) B230F engine to give up to 165-170hp...
 

Bready

board deviant
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
OK - still not sure I'm buying the upper ceiling numbers, but fair enough.

What is the difference between a head ported for NA vs Turbo applications, save cam design?

JB
 

iadr

New member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Location
truant member
JB- power is limited by the amount of air you can get in. Air is limited by the port/valve flow and the cam duration. The cam duration is limited by drivability/ practical rpm needs, as well as diminishing returns as friction as parasitic/intertial losses mount exponentionally with RPM. This isn't just me, but engineers working with heads like those at Edelbrock, AFR or Canfield, as well as consultants like David Vizard and Superflow Flowbench engineers. Superflow say you need an intake flow of .27 to .28 cfm/hp/cyl on race gas even given unlimited compression ratio and cam duration. I figure a rule of thumb setting the cylinders at a constant 4 is hp=intake flow, everything perfect, on pump gas, and have posted that and used it for a while as an absolute limit. This would mean .25 cfm/hp. I am now suggesting that it may be better to work backwards from exhaust flow, as many OE castings are limited by exhaust flow, or exhaust residuals. In other words, if the cycle was starting fresh everytime, your pumping losses would be less, and your mixture to burn pure enough, that you'd make more power than you do having to deal with the 'problems' left behind by an exhaust volume that is unable to clear itself. Anyway, I'm now using exhaust flow divided by .79 equals hp (for a 4cyl). I actually was posting an IM to QwkSwede on here earlier tonight and my figures matched jr-55's fairly closely. Mine were a little more pessimistic.

BTW, Kenny's Burn Vs. Quench Vs. Sqirl thread from last year is a recommended read from the archives. The 2 cent summary: Often getting a good burn outweighs the need for flow.

The flow figures above are of a 405 I had tested to back to back compare my modifications to stock. ... and not to brag, but I had the bench testing done by Neil Fedderly. Neil's brother Bernie (might be cousin?) is the crew chief for John Force.


I've examined 405 and 398 heads and cannot see an exhaust port difference, even when Matt has explained via email where he is seeing it.

I tend to think the 405's large intake shortside radius is all important.
I don't think you can match the big port head with a small port head, just based on that alone.

I do, however, look at the 405 as a compromised design, wherein the design brief probably included a need for it to match the intake manifold and gasket design already set into production for the 160. Especially at the entrance, it looks as if it's blended to round where it would have been ovoid/D shaped given a free rein.
 

Bready

board deviant
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Fair enough, and thanks as always for your post.

Regarding the head flow/burn potential of an NA motor: I was more interested in knowing if there is a difference in modifying the head from a flow/burn standpoint if you are looking at NA vs Turbo - I never knew there was much of a difference in optimal flow/burn dynamics, so just curious there.

Outside of that I am guessing that most of the NA focus projects on this board would be delighted if they could get 200/300 relative HP out the heads. Point being that NA or Turbo apps are probably not going to be limited by the max potential of the heads for the most part. Just my guess.

**POST SCRIPT - sorry, I am lumping the 530 and 531 together as both big port heads, my bad - 66's post makes a bit more sense now. Still curious about different head mods as they apply to NA vs Turbo.

JB
 
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