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Bench Rallycross With Me

I have several types/lengths of 250-300 lb/in, and the rear cones to convert the lower to a conventional open spring.
I can't find front strut top hats for the 5.5" pigtails, I used a top from a chevy spectrum/isuzu. I'll hit the yard and see if there are any left. I doubt it.
I have corolla tops that work with conventional 5" springs, and if you decide to do towery coilovers with pvc sleeve, the tops are easy. You just need a bearing.
I also have BNE Select top mounts and lux steer (FWD volvo) top bearings.

We should talk about ride height, which will determine rear shocks. for using a 13" tall stiffer rear spring I like the Gabriel Ultra for suburban.
www.ebay.com

(2) Gabriel G60008 Bruiser Suspension Shock Absorbers - Front - PAIR | eBay

Gabriel part number G60008-2. OUR CHOICE. Be sure the part you are buying is correct for your application.
www.ebay.com
Keeping the front at stock height is good for roll center, but at 1" lower it isn't terrible. It just does some weird acrobatics above/below ground and left/right with softer springs in turns/bumps. Letting the rear down a bit gives you 2 degrees free caster per inch off-level.
 
mikep said:
I have several types/lengths of 250-300 lb/in, and the rear cones to convert the lower to a conventional open spring.
I can't find front strut top hats for the 5.5" pigtails, I used a top from a chevy spectrum/isuzu. I'll hit the yard and see if there are any left. I doubt it.
I have corolla tops that work with conventional 5" springs, and if you decide to do towery coilovers with pvc sleeve, the tops are easy. You just need a bearing.
I also have BNE Select top mounts and lux steer (FWD volvo) top bearings.

We should talk about ride height, which will determine rear shocks. for using a 13" tall stiffer rear spring I like the Gabriel Ultra for suburban.
www.ebay.com

(2) Gabriel G60008 Bruiser Suspension Shock Absorbers - Front - PAIR | eBay

Gabriel part number G60008-2. OUR CHOICE. Be sure the part you are buying is correct for your application.
www.ebay.com
Keeping the front at stock height is good for roll center, but at 1" lower it isn't terrible. It just does some weird acrobatics above/below ground and left/right with softer springs in turns/bumps. Letting the rear down a bit gives you 2 degrees free caster per inch off-level.
Click to expand...

It's not a great reflection on me how fast this conversation is leaving me behind...

I can't find front strut top hats for the 5.5" pigtails
Click to expand...

Is this larger than the stock spring size? Or are the 5" springs smaller requiring the corolla top?

I was planning on stock ride height. I'm partial to stock ride heights in general. You're saying the acrobatics are produced from the 1" lowering?

Is the caster from lowering the rear the idea behind the reverse rake I've read about on 242GT's? Bringing the rear of the car down changes the axis of the front wheels, creating positive caster, bringing benefits that are too engineering for me to really understand why they're happening? benefits per google: "You get better handling when cornering, better stability at high speeds, and better straight-line tracking."
 
Nose up is bad aerodynamically, so is a level stance to a smaller degree. But if you can’t get caster, it can help that. So for a temporary low speed turn-in fix, it’s ok. So is slight static toe-out.
Volvo front springs are around 6” diameter. I forget exactly. Rears are something like 4.75”. Springs are all over the place in the car industry.
Lowering a car lowers the roll center. In some cars it does odd things at a certain height. In a 240 that height is 1“ lower than stock.
 
Sourwould said:
It's not a great reflection on me how fast this conversation is leaving me behind...
Click to expand...
Simple terms:
  • Stock or slightly stiffer front springs and the decarbon struts will be fine, maybe use a stock front sway bar and none in the rear. Stock rear springs or some wagon springs, and some new KYBs or Gabriel Ultras for a 240. We raced for years on the stage rally 240 with Gabriel Ultra rear shocks, they are extremely decent. My only other recommendation is revalved Bilstein shocks and struts from Sellholm (~210/ea for the shocks). The suburban and s10 (?) shocks were not a great experience for me as they were valved way to stiff and would lock out the suspension on any highspeed shock motion.
  • For alignment: zero toe if it's loose/soft/muddy, slight toe-out if it has some grip. As much camber as you can get, and as much caster as you can get. With stock control arms, stock OD springs, and stock type strut mounts... you're not getting a lot. If you want more caster and camber the welded tubular control arms from KL Racing are a great addition.
    • Alternative option: Say F-it and don't change a thing. I podiumed a lot with a completely stock b21 k-jet 245 with an m46 on all seasons and 300k mile suspension that was completely blown out.
  • For drive: slap in a lunchbox locker and send it. Since it's an auto it will have the 3.73 gears, which is about the best you can get without spending a bunch of money.
  • Other car prep: IPD skidplate or steal a road sign and make your own. They help protect the steering rack and keeping debris out of the belts. I'd recommend an exhaust that goes over the axle. I've ripped of 3(?) under axle exhausts while on gravel roads.
  • Tires (maybe the most important part for rallyx): This is highly course and terrain dependent, but snow tires and some grooving can make a very fast tire. See what the really fast cars are using at an event. If it's wet and muddy the recapped mud rallyx tires from the UK are awesome.
  • Remove as much weight as possible from the car.
 
Been thinking about this and also all the regular stage 0 stuff the car needs. I would like to make some events this year and its been raining every weekend.

Front Suspension
I think I'm going to stick with the stock front springs and install the decarbon struts, Mike's plates if he has them or these 15a style plates. Stick with the 21 mm anti roll bar.

Rear Suspension
FCP has a spring/shock kit for the rear with slightly stiffer than stock "HD" springs and KYB's, which is very tempting. Remove rear anti roll bar.

Rear End
Mike's possible lunchbox locker or the amazon spartan locker.

Underbody
This car still has its plastic skid plate in the front and it's in really good shape. My plan was to try and reinforce the mounts and run it until it was trashed. The IPD plate doesn't seem bad for the money, honestly. Need to take the exhaust off the turbo parts car and look at making it over axle. Its fairly new, but totally crushed where it passes under the axle.

Tires
I need to double check, but I don't think any kind of rally tire is allowed at the events I'm going to. What they call a rally tire would be a snow tire or an all terrain. I have some blizzaks in my cart that are on closeout ($300 shipped) in the odd size of 175 65 15, which I think might be pretty sweet. I have some of these wheels off a 740.
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Buying tires might be a little excessive, but the tires and locker might do more for me than everything else combined. The car has basically brand new street tires. Might make more sense to change wheels at the event than to tear up my street tires on the course or tear up the snow tires driving 1 hr to each event.

The above is probably a good starting point so the car isn't actively hindering me. Its also not so much work that I can't make some of this season's events. Price is right on everything (assuming nothing gifted) compared to the interest out there for the parts off my 245 turbo. I guess there's just not that many 240 turbos still running around. I'm not on a college student budget, am not afraid to spend a little, but it feels better to have a quasi self funded hobby.

I also have basically everything to +t, including a good b21ft long block, which I thought might be a good winter project. Sourcing a manual transmission is starting to feel like a better (more fun) use of that time though.
 
I drove cross-country (towing a Duett) on snow tires in case I hit a blizzard. (I hit a blizzard) They were fine.
Old firestone snows on the 244 were pretty decent on most courses 15 years ago, and we didn't see many cars on rally tires at the DC region events.
Driving and getting lots of time on lots of surfaces is key. drive in parking lots in the snow, fields if you can, get lots of practice controlling bad understeer and oversteer and learning to brake in dirt and not upset the car terrible bad entering turns. I grew up in the land of dirt roads and circle tracks, so I like being out of shape in a car. But too out of shape is slow.
Soft springs are fine on grass or in mud. They were fine in the 80s. They were not fine at Orange VA at the national event where the red clay hooked up almost like asphalt, and in the rutted big bump course. 300# springs were perfect. So were stock miata springs and big sways (we ran a roll bar and hard top, and Miatas have reasonably-engineered spring rates.. volvo 240s have the worst under-rated springs). We just went out and drove that miata like autocrossing in the rain. Same traction on all-seasons.
Today in autocross and rallycross, there are dozens of people who have done their homework. In stock, they are running stock springs, and 240s finish last. In improved classes they run stiffer springs and dampers if they want to compete.
Not that you won't have fun and go fast on stock marshmallow stuff, I just don't see anyone winning that way in any improved classes in the last decade.
I'm putting together a box of stuff for you.
 
On transmissions, I have an M46 and most of the swap stuff. But the automatic is nice for rallycross. (I have those too if you want a spare)
 
For a hooked up clay surface, stiffer springs make total sense. PNW courses are usually loose, so you can use a softer spring and be better off.

And +1 for Firestone Winterforce tires! A closed up large block tractionized snow tire is awesome on harder and grippier surfaces.

The FCP Kit looks solid. With 120 lb/in springs you'd want to up the front rate a bit, and hopefully Mike has something that will compliment it well in the 175-200 lb/in range. Though with the used struts they might be loose/bouncy at those rates.
 
Automatic preferred for rallycross? Is that because of the ratios on the M46/7 or just because there's less thinking involved? I've only had one m47 car, but I remember the granny gear. I actually already have a spare aw71 and another rear axle with a 3.91.

Finding somewhere to get some seat time would be a lot easier if I still lived in the mountains, I think. I swear there is never not people around.

I thought snow tires were really soft and would wear quickly. I'm a sweet summer child and have never owned a set.

Ok, I'm seeing what you mean about the clay. Hard as shit after its baking all summer. I had a volunteer group of high school kids a couple weeks ago digging out for a concrete wheelchair ramp. Those poor kids.

Would one need more damping for these 300# springs? are the smaller diameters (5", 5.5") to make room for more camber?

The decarbons I have appear to be new, just ~30-40 years old. Still banded. Were cheap enough to take a risk, in my mind.

One more thought on the undercarriage: Should I be worried about the fuel pump/filter?

From a Yanceyville Event. No grass, red clay. Land owner grades it with a tractor before the events, I think. Organizers don't run in bad weather, don't know if that's common or not.
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culberro said:
All of that sounds pretty good. For springs I'd recommend the Lesjofor diesel 240 springs in the front with some "15A" plates to keep the rubber strut mounts alive. Out back some stock replacement rear springs like the Moog CC215. Take of the rear sway bar, maybe run a small front sway bar.
Skip the g80 and install a Spartan locker. Right now they are 50% off on Amazon (back to 2018 prices!): https://www.amazon.com/USA-Standard...keywords=dana+30+locker&qid=1680738989&sr=8-3
You can install one of these in 1-2 hours.
Click to expand...
Are any special tools required for this? I had a bitch of a time trying to dismantle a rear diff, couldn't get the pin out and also my vice isn't very large
 
conehead said:
Are any special tools required for this? I had a bitch of a time trying to dismantle a rear diff, couldn't get the pin out and also my vice isn't very large
Click to expand...
Hardest part is removing the center section from the diff housing, but that's easy enough with 2 large pry bars.
You'll need a vice or a way to keep the diff from moving while you torque the ring gear bolts. This can be done with the diff in the car and a breaker bar through the driveshaft yoke.
 
Yet another weighty tome...

Finally stopped raining. Had a couple hours and went up to take a better look at the suspensions on the Volvos. Everything I've pulled off the parts wagon has been in relatively good condition, seems like it was well maintained before being abruptly parked for 15 years. Obviously I can't drive it, but wanted to put a pry bar on everything in the rear and see how it felt. Most of the bushings were surprisingly tight. Everything on the 244 was unsurprisingly awful. Explains why the axle looks kinda off how its sitting under the car

In the very short term, I think I will swap over the panhard, torque rods, and springs from the wagon when I do the rear shocks. I figure saggy wagon springs in place of saggy sedan springs will at least reclaim some ride height, it's very crowded under there. Not going to get the FCP kit, going to run what I got (that's free) and replace the trailing arm bushings. Will replace the panhard and torque rod bushings when the spares are off the car and the marginal bushings from the wagon are thrashed. Plan to pull everything off the wagon suspension before I crush it and have an extra of everything. Would be nice to have spares to experiment with things like the towery coilovers.

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Either a piece of bushing sleeve or a piece of steel deeply imbedded in the bushing :ROFLMAO:
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Put together a more concise to do list (for my own organization), roughly in order of importance with like tasks grouped. Seems like enough to do for now.

Stage 0
Oil change
Flush coolant (Wait for head swap)
Flush brake fluid (Wait for calipers)
Flush trans fluid
Service flame trap, relocate w/ late model parts.
Fuel Filter
Air Filter
Inspect heater/radiator hoses
Adjust throttle/kickdown cable
Diff oil + gasket (Wait for locker)
Build a permanent ignition harness
Install 039 distributor and set base timing
Get overdrive working
Get good full size spare or 2.

Stage Brake/hub/wheel
Rebuild 84 calipers, check spec on rotors, maybe surface (maybe not worth doing)
Check rear brakes, adjust parking brake
Install locker, assoc. seals
Alignment

Stage Suspension v1.000
Decarbon struts, swap over OEM dust boots
KYB Gas-a-just or Gab. Ultra rear shocks (exact same price)
Crusty wagon springs
Swap over decent 245 parts, front and rear
Trailing arm bushings (get bushing tool)
BNE top mounts w/ spherical bearings
Remove rear anti-roll bar

Stage Engine
405 head and K-cam
  • Install adjustable cam gear
  • Maybe late model head bolts for simpler torquing procedure
  • Get exhaust studs
  • Check to see if head is drilled/tapped for coolant temp sensor (It is!)
Replace front seals and top end gaskets
Install 010 distributor and set new base timing
Maybe late model injectors for better spray pattern/younger and cleaner
Modify/install exhaust from 245
Replace engine mounts
 
Your rear wheels are rubbing inside either cause you are using big end new style torque rods or your panhard is totally blown. Swapping from those to better condition old style solid rubber ones has been the biggest thing to improve my times yet.... if you can manage clean lines then putting more traction down is a big deal. If the rear is not as planted or stable it transfers less power to the surface and those wheel rubbing marks are the sign of that I struggled with the same thing.
 
Superhans240 said:
Your rear wheels are rubbing inside either cause you are using big end new style torque rods or your panhard is totally blown. Swapping from those to better condition old style solid rubber ones has been the biggest thing to improve my times yet.... if you can manage clean lines then putting more traction down is a big deal. If the rear is not as planted or stable it transfers less power to the surface and those wheel rubbing marks are the sign of that I struggled with the same thing.
Click to expand...

I can confirm the panhard is totally blown. I think the ride height is also a factor. There's also a big dent in the bottom of the gas tank, so who knows what happened.

I wasn't aware there were two kinds of torque rods. Is this a +-86 or +-80 change? Or is this just a difference in the bushing?
 
dl242gt said:
The torque arm change is from 80-81. The earlier arms have a solid bushing and the newer version has a round bushing with voids in it.
Click to expand...
That makes sense now. I've had 5 240s that were 83 or 84. Have hardly ever seen them older than that.
 
Got some time to work on the car today. Since I swapped the ignition to breakerless, I've had trouble getting the ignition timing correct and the engine sounds like its detonating under load. Had the distributor in one tooth off :uh:. I installed the 039 distributor I got from Limezest, so now we got vacuum ADVANCE. WOO!

Set the base timing at 10 degrees. Took the car on its first real test drive to the gas station to get some premium and snacks. Detonationish sound did not fade on the drive back. Backed off the timing to 8 degrees. Saw that the fan shroud was completely loose at the bottom. I think the shroud was hitting the fan whenever I was accelerating. No sound with the fan shroud secured. There is a strong smell of gas in the cabin at WOT, but that's for another weekend.

Swapped the springs and shocks from my parts wagon. These 15+ year old KYB's still rebound pretty good, or at least better than the 1983 OEM shocks. All in all, its a pretty good band-aid. The rear feels much more planted. Not sure if its the marginally stiffer springs or having any damping at all, but it was worth the time it took. Current goal is to make the May 6th event. Would like to do the struts, strut mounts, brakes, and fluids before then.
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Glamor shot. My buddy's aspirational rallyx corolla in the garage. Poor bastard had to drop the tank to do the fuel pump.
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